Disparities & Justice?

[CH1]

I don't know if this question has been shot around the forum & I apoligise if it has.

Has any body noticed that a General who went AWOL with a svc s/a recieved treatment for PTSD and is doing the talk show circuit while the ranks seem to get detention and dishonorable discharges. 

Maybe my view of the situation is skewed some how, but this seems to be the case as with several bodies fm 1 btn.

 

[aesop081]

I don't know if this question has been shot around the forum & I apoligise if it has.

Has any body noticed that a General who went AWOL with a svc s/a recieved treatment for PTSD and is doing the talk show circuit while the ranks seem to get detention and dishonorable discharges.  

Maybe my view of the situation is skewed some how, but this seems to be the case as with several bodies fm 1 btn.

Your question is somewhat vague but i'll throw this at you:

When a corporal drives a nissan x-terra trough the front doors of base HQ in edmonton and does doughnuts in the BOR.....why does he get his face on TV and gets his CPSM before me ?  Life's unfair......suck it up !

 

[Inch]

That General was Romeo Dallaire, I highly doubt that anyone else in Canada has ever witnessed what he did.

 

[aesop081]

That General was Romeo Dallaire, I highly doubt that anyone else in Canada has ever witnessed what he did.

quite right !

 

[CH1]

My intent was not to knock any body & thats why I kept it vague.  What he saw, & the RO's that he was under left him with out even the canoe!  The scene was definetely horrible.  The main reason for bringing this forward was for comment.  When theres a lull, the younger generations, sometimes question me about the differences inTrg & the effects.

The main theme that seems to come forward is the difference & levels of trg, that us OT's got.  The SOP's were that we were constantly doing live fire ex's, range quals every 3 mos,2-3 mos in the field & with our instructors being WWII & Korean vets they rode us harder.  I guess when the brass hit the extractor, we were in some ways better prep'd for what we saw. 

I was on base the day the O/O was hit (unusual for me).  The 1 point that seems to evade was that Gen. Dallaire had his svc S/A & was not charged on that point as an NCM would.

Sorry if I offended any one.

 

[043]

You know, the Good General may not have been punished however, what he did was open the door for other PTSD victims (by victim I in now way mean anything disparaging). Have you not witnessed great assistance and awareness?

 

[pbi]

The main theme that seems to come forward is the difference & levels of trg, that us OT's got.   The SOP's were that we were constantly doing live fire ex's, range quals every 3 mos,2-3 mos in the field & with our instructors being WWII & Korean vets they rode us harder.   I guess when the brass hit the extractor, we were in some ways better prep'd for what we saw.  

I was on base the day the O/O was hit (unusual for me).   The 1 point that seems to evade was that Gen. Dallaire had his svc S/A & was not charged on that point as an NCM would.

Sorry if I offended any one.

I must be missing something here......

What is the connection between the training you received and how these two people were treated by the military justice system? I don't see one, to be honest.

And, on the statement about his "service s/a"-I am not familiar with that term: do you mean his personal weapon? I had not heard that when the police found the General, that he was carrying a military weapon. Maybe I am missing something, again. What are you basing this statement on? Cheers.

 

[043]

Hey PBI, I gotta admit, I am confused as well...............maybe I am rtfooh but man, what does that have to do with the topic?>

 

[Spr.Earl]

One,the Good Gen. did not drive his vehicle into Base H.Q..

Two,he had a few indiscretions unbecoming an Officer of his rank and there by it was found out that he was suffering from what he saw and what he was unable to correct even though he let the World know what was coming.

As to the Cpl I believe his complaint was the lack off aid and the disbelief his superiors had over his condition which lead him to crash into H.Q.ergo the charges against him.
If I'm wrong please correct me.

 

[043]

One,the Good Gen. did not drive his vehicle into Base H.Q..

Two,he had a few indiscretions unbecoming an Officer of his rank and there by it was found out that he was suffering from what he saw and what he was unable to correct even though he let the World know what was coming.

As to the Cpl I believe his complaint was the lack off aid and the disbelief his superiors had over his condition which lead him to crash into H.Q.ergo the charges against him.
If I'm wrong please correct me.

Well said as always!

Chimo Brother Beaver!

 

[CH1]

Thanks for the comments.  Differences in terms, side arm & personal weapon.  I've had some of young NCO's comment to me that there is a marked difference in how my generation handles some of the crap we all have seen compared to how the newer generations handle it.  Yes he had a svc Hi power.  Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to roast anybody, but some times I have to sort out what's happening.  The job takes it's toll on all of us to lesser & greater degrees. I have 1st hand knowledge of guys coming back with the same problems.  They sure lost their careers in short time.  They also got bricked on Civ law also. 

 

[KevinB]

Maybe if the "good" Cpl has not been a pothead and mixed Pot, Antidepressants (he was on them prior to The Uganda Hotel stay) Alcohol and Melfoquine....

Funny he did not smash his vehicle - but that of another - just when his 2 years paid vacation was up...

 

[pbi]

CH1: I think part of the problem is that we are talking about different time periods. I also recall the days in which the response to a soldier having a serious issue was "shut up and get on the plane". I saw the ultimate (and inevitable...) result of that in a horrifying incident in Croatia in which a soldier  known to have "issues" blew himself to pieces with a hand grenade. The psychological casualty toll from that bloody mess included a very close friend of mine, among others.

While I will be the first to admit that we have perhaps gone too far the other way in some cases today, I would also tell you that the "suck it up and hide it" mentality that we used to have was IMHO responsible for literally tens of thousands of psychological casualties that our Army suffered after both World Wars. While I do not have access to the records to prove my point I am fairly certain that either VAC or DND have historical data on this. A couple of years ago there was also a high profile court case on how the accrued benefits of WWII psychological casualties were to be handled, as they had been withheld (IIRC) due to the inability of the patients to use the funds properly in their mental state. As well, I would point to what seemed to me to be the very high levels of alcohol abuse and alcoholism in the Regular Force in the 70s  and into the 80s. It was necessary for us to operate at least three regional detox centres. How much of this was attributable to psychological problems, perhaps stemming from Korean service?

In my opinion we know far more about CIS and PTSD than we did back in those days. We know for example, that the majority of people exposed to a traumatic incident will not develop PTSD, that measures can be taken to lessen the impact of CIS on individuals, and that certain people are definitely more at risk. We will probably never get rid of CIS and PTSD (we're in the wrong business for that..) but I think we have got a much better grip on it. Cheers.

 

[CH1]

Thanks PBI!

You hit the nail on the head.  I've been removed from the main stream for so long that I sometimes wonder if I'm in the same Army.  You must be an OT also by the sound of it.  I remember the "barley sandwich" was very close for a lot of years.  Usually as close as the spare ammo, or if one was really lucky in the back of a gin palace.  My hat is still off to the new generations.  They have to do more with even less than we did in 60's & 70's.

 

[pbi]

That was why we used to like combined arms training: when we leagured up with the Strats, their SQMS always had beer (not counting what was in the turret bins!) A beer at lunch (or two, or...) in the Mess was common. In fact when I first arrived at 3 PP it was SOP to join your OC in the mess for a while at the end of each day before going home. And Happy Hour.....well--'nuff said. Cheers.

 

[bossi]

Perhaps a tad late in this discussion, but here's another two cents' worth ...

On the other side of the coin, during the last few years I've become aware of a number of instances where corporals have NOT been charged for stuff, but officers have been charged for the exact same indiscretions ... (i.e. being an officer has NOT resulted in preferential treatment - in fact, one could say they've been held to a higher standard of conduct).

Sorry for not being able to cite names, ranks and serials numbers, but ... privacy is an issue.
So, I'd very politely like to suggest that it's not possible to take one incident and generalise (no pun intended, with respect to generalising about generals ... haha!)

 

[Highland Lad]

Having been on both sides of the issue (although not as seriously as the two prime cases discussed above), I will say that there is a very large difference between even-handed application of justice and blind obedience to the letter of the law, rather than the spirit...

I have been charged by mistake (similar names), I have been falsely accused of a couple of things by malicious misguided individuals, and I have been sat down for quiet, private counselling by someone who would have been perfectly within rights to have called the MPs about me... I have turned out stronger and (I think) better for having had the opportunity to learn from all these situations, where a different outcome in any of them could have destroyed my CF career (such as it was / is) and turned me into a bitter critic of the system. Thank goodness for sensible people wth common sense occupying positions of authority, I know of situations where that has not been the case, and I have seen that, in the CF at least, those situations are few and far between, especially where a career is at risk.

If any individual is judged without taking into account all applicable circumstances (and I am NOT talking about rank or appointment), then there is no such thing as justice. I am also not saying that everyone should get a free "oops" - good intentions and unfortunate circumstances do not make for a license to commit mayhem. What is always needed is investigating authorities with the desire and ability to tell the difference between an individual having a problem and being a problem.