Do you ever get treated like a human?

[aesop081]

Hell, even the leadership courses out of Pet this summer could not fail anyone off the mod 6.

Sure they can. If there is no institutional will do do the work required to remove someone from course, thats another story. I know this from painful experience.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.

Every BMQ and QL3 course I ever taught on ran into this.  I used to give the following speech to explain why we just don't kick out the weak links.  Maybe this will make some sense to you...

"Every course, every troop, or platoon, or Orderly Room, will have someone who is labled the weakest link, the slowest soldier.  And what does everyone want to do with that person?  Get rid of them, kick them out, something like that.  Ok, so we'll do that with this course.  We will get rid of the poorest performing recruit.  Now guess what happens?  That person is gone...in an hour, a day, a week...at SOME point in time...you dumb bastards will label someone else as the weakest troop.  So again, we'll do our job...we'll punt THAT soldier.  And then guess what?  Starting to see a pattern?  Now, lots of you are all for getting rid of people you see as weaker than you....and luckily for you...so am I.  I see all of YOU as weaker than me, and the entire staff...so we'll just get rid of the fuckin' lot of you.  Get the point yet?  If we constantly get rid of the 'weakest' person, pretty soon this course will be down to 2 recruits...one of which will of course be the strongest of the 2.  So if we follow your mentality, every course and unit would consist of one goddamn soldier.  But you' better stop and ask yourself, the whole self centered lot of ya...when it is gonna be YOUR turn to be labelled the weak one and get the boot?"

Maybe that makes sense...maybe you think its BS.  But the point still stands...where do we stop?  The people who CAN'T meet the standard are weeded out...and every unit has poor and strong performers...its always been that way...I suspect it always will be.  Even JTF2 has SOMEONE who is the slowest runner, the worst shot...there are some SAR Techs that are better than others...some Leo gnrs are better gnrs than others...some clerks know the pay system better than others.  We're human, after all. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

We're human, after all.

CDN Aviator isn't...the dude is a machine. The Aviatnor.
Instead of "I'll be back"...is "I'll have another beer"

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CDN Aviator isn't...the dude is a machine. The Aviatnor.
Instead of "I'll be back"...is "I'll have another beer"

:cheers:  I'll drink to that!!

 

[Jorkapp]

Every BMQ and QL3 course I ever taught on ran into this.  I used to give the following speech to explain why we just don't kick out the weak links.  Maybe this will make some sense to you...

"Every course, every troop, or platoon, or Orderly Room, will have someone who is labled the weakest link, the slowest soldier.  And what does everyone want to do with that person?  Get rid of them, kick them out, something like that.  Ok, so we'll do that with this course.  We will get rid of the poorest performing recruit.  Now guess what happens?  That person is gone...in an hour, a day, a week...at SOME point in time...you dumb bastards will label someone else as the weakest troop.  So again, we'll do our job...we'll punt THAT soldier.  And then guess what?  Starting to see a pattern?  Now, lots of you are all for getting rid of people you see as weaker than you....and luckily for you...so am I.  I see all of YOU as weaker than me, and the entire staff...so we'll just get rid of the ******' lot of you.  Get the point yet?  If we constantly get rid of the 'weakest' person, pretty soon this course will be down to 2 recruits...one of which will of course be the strongest of the 2.  So if we follow your mentality, every course and unit would consist of one goddamn soldier.  But you' better stop and ask yourself, the whole self centered lot of ya...when it is gonna be YOUR turn to be labelled the weak one and get the boot?"

Well said. If standards were relative, this would be the case, and we would hardly have anyone graduate a course let alone be in the CF. Our objective standards have their place, and have thusfar given us an effective military. As a result, you'll find ****-pumps no matter where you go, be it civvy jobs, courses, or even on the road, yet they continue to hold their jobs, pass their courses, and be barely functional drivers. Just wait for SHTF, and natural selection will take it's course.

 

[Delta]

But the point still stands...where do we stop?  The people who CAN'T meet the standard are weeded out...and every unit has poor and strong performers...its always been that way...I suspect it always will be ... We're human, after all. 

Two thoughts after reading your reply.
1. If someone puts out their best and it is still not good enough, I am willing to be punished along with that individual because I know he gave his efforts. What pissed me off is, actual event, the staff says that no inspection will be done tomorrow. Some individuals slack off and make a mess of their rooms (beds not made, dirty laundry everywhere ...). Duty Sgt comes by, WHAM, puts everyone into the 'inspection twice-a-day' drill. I don't know, should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists) "But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count." or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.

2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Even if you're told no inspection, ALWAYS be prepared for an inspection.

 

[aesop081]

should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists) 

What does reservist have to do with anything ?

"But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count."

That the course staff does not require an inspection does not absolve you from obeying base standing orders, most of which require that quarters be maintained in an acceptable state at all times.

or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.

"but Sgt, the other course gets to do......."

That come under the heading of whiney little b***h !

 

[Michael OLeary]

2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.

You're missing the point.

Each course has a standard, a "bar" that students are expected to achieve.  That bar is a set by the Course Training Plan, which was developed by experienced members of the trade who understood what was necessary to meet the expectations to perform at the training level required of a course graduate (and often assuming further development on the job for later career progression).  Where the system gets fucked up is when staff, or student cliques, decide that the bar is too low and arbitrarily raise it.  This changes the standard, and students can fail that otherwise would have passed and may well have developed into credible and worthy soldiers.  Changing the standard, whether by staff or fellow students' expectations cheats the victims of that approach of their own potential career achievements, and cheats the system that chose eligible trainees - it's one reason that in some areas we may be losing training capacity with higher than necessary failure rates.  If someone honestly doesn't meet the official standard, then by all means they should fail, but when training and test standards are fucked with and students fail, its a failure of integrity in a serous way that cheats all of us.  There will always be "marginal" candidates, no matter what standard is set, but every new recruit is only enlisted for a basic engagement, with no promise of further advancement, that advancement comes with demonstrated competence and potential.

(And as for your example (assuming the statistic is correct), that is a function of where the SEALS have set their "bar", and they then accept that 75% of applicants don't make the grade.  It's not supportive of the premise that it's the "OK" to look down on people.)

 

[Franko]

Even if you're told no inspection, ALWAYS be prepared for an inspection.

That's the best advice I've seen in a while.      

Regards

 

[armyvern]

Two thoughts after reading your reply.
1. If someone puts out their best and it is still not good enough, I am willing to be punished along with that individual because I know he gave his efforts. What pissed me off is, actual event, the staff says that no inspection will be done tomorrow. Some individuals slack off and make a mess of their rooms (beds not made, dirty laundry everywhere ...). Duty Sgt comes by, WHAM, puts everyone into the 'inspection twice-a-day' drill. I don't know, should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists) "But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count." or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.

2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.

RULE #1 in the field, on ops, in garrison:

PERSONAL HYGIENE.

We stress that for a reason. Even if there's "no inspection" coming ... you need to keep your shit clean. Ever heard of "shack hack"? Or any other myriad of medical issues? We live, work, fight, and sometimes die ... in close quarters. A soldier NEEDS to ensure that he looks after his personal hygiene because he can take an army down with him and his illness when he doesn't. Fit to fight. That doesn't refer to just physical fitness.

Have you guys had ANY PMed briefings as part of your training yet? This was a point made abundantly clear to us during my training years. It's an important lesson. A priority lesson. And, judging by your post -- it's a lesson that you and your buddies haven't quite grasped yet. I'm sure, that after the actions of your instructional staff to correct your "not getting it" --- that you probably do now and that it won't happen again. Your staff was correct in the actions they took. Lessons learned. And, BTW, it's not a lesson that should be forgotten after your training is done. Just ask the guys who live in the shacks here what happens to them if the RSM should find their singles quarters room to be a mess during one of his routine, but random, inspections of the singles quarters on base. <--- and those guys aren't in training any more. It's not pretty, nor should it be.

Apparently your course still has much to learn in the way of "look after your buddies - your buddy looks after you." When they don't clean up their shit - it's up to YOU guys to make sure they do, that's your jobs as team members. Not the instructors.

 

[Jungle]

Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.

Reminds me of an old saying:

"Mixing the good with the bad is like mixing crap with ice cream; it doesn't help crap any, but it sure screws your ice cream"

 

[Timmy!]

And, BTW, it's not a lesson that should be forgotten after your training is done. Just ask the guys who live in the shacks here what happens to them if the RSM should find their singles quarters room to be a mess during one of his routine, but random, inspections of the singles quarters on base. <--- and those guys aren't in training any more. It's not pretty, nor should it be.

It bought me 8 extras for having a pair of dirty socks on the floor. Of course, this was after I was told to keep my room clean the week before. Lesson learn. And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D

 

[Shamrock]

It bought me 8 extras for having a pair of dirty socks on the floor. Of course, this was after I was told to keep my room clean the week before. Lesson learn. And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D

Your wife gives you extras?

 

[Strike]

And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D

I was about to lay in on you for that comment...but re-read it and saw "me" in it.  Amazing how the mind sees what it wants, huh?  ;D

 

[Delta]

Reminds me of an old saying:

"Mixing the good with the bad is like mixing crap with ice cream; it doesn't help crap any, but it sure screws your ice cream"

Here is what I am trying to relay. Some will not be able to handle the 'policy' any longer; sooner or later, some will give in, will it be the better ones or the bad ones.

If those who can't take the initiative to ensure their own responsibilities are done, how can you expect them to help out others?

I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).

 

[armyvern]

I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).

Yep. It is.

That's called Leadership and responsibility. It starts immediately upon your entering the CF ... not after your training is complete.

Get some. And when you have it --- you pass it on to others --- even if you have to fight long and hard to get it through their heads. That's what teamworkers do.

 

[Armymedic]

Here is the final answer to your original question:

You will be treated like a human, and then treated as an adult, once you prove that you deserve to be.

Until then, shut up and do what you are told.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Here is what I am trying to relay. Some will not be able to handle the 'policy' any longer; sooner or later, some will give in, will it be the better ones or the bad ones.

If those who can't take the initiative to ensure their own responsibilities are done, how can you expect them to help out others?

I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).

You know, supervising soldiers is something NCOs do every minute of every day.  Kit inspections, wpn inspections, etc etc etc.  It doesn't stop.  Get used to it.  If you are sick of covering other people's ass, I hope you realize your SUPPOSED to be doing that. 

 

[George Wallace]

Here is the final answer to your original question:

You will be treated like a human, and then treated as an adult, once you prove that you deserve to be.

Until then, shut up and do what you are told.

Actually, I was beginning to think along the same lines, and that this topic has the wrong title.  Perhaps it should have been: "Do you ever get treated as an Adult?"; and the answer will vary on the attitudes of your "Leadership".  Some, so called, leaders believe that all below them are children (and treat them that way) and that is their "leadership style".  The more experienced know that their subordinates are adults, and respect them for what they are capable of, giving them due recognition of that fact, and these are the true Leaders.  They know that their position of good standing is due to the hard work and dedication of their subordinates.  These are the Leaders, NCM or Officer, who's subordinates will follow to Hell and back.