Does a DEO help you progress faster ?

[Zero to One]

Hi, I would like to enlist to become a Naval Warfare Officer and from what I understand with the DEO you start as an Acting Sub-Lieutenant after basic military training. Does that mean that at the end of the nine-year contract, you will potentially have a higher rank than those who enlisted with the ROTP, for example ? Because I imagine that in general, you finish the nine years as a Lieutenant, but with the DEO, is it easier to finish as a Lieutenant Commander ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[ModlrMike]

You can typically only DEO if you have the appropriate credentials for the occupation, ie: nursing degree = DEO nurse. Alternatively, officers who are re-enrolling in the same trade they left would enter as DEO. DEO officers are already qualified in their occupation, and do not require basic occupational training in order to work in their trade. NWO would not qualify (except in the case of re-enrolling). To answer the question you asked, being a DEO does not necessarily mean that at the end of your initial engagement, you would have obtained a higher rank than someone enrolled under a different plan. The results of one's career progression are highly variable and individualized, and what happens for one, does not necessarily happen for another. With a nine year engagement, virtually every officer will finish at the rank equivalent to army captain - unless they're a right bag of hammers.

 

[Staff Weenie]

I would also add that jumping up through the ranks quickly might be good for your bank account, but is bad for your subordinates. Their ability to succeed in their role depends in large upon your ability as a leader to set all the right conditions. In some cases, their lives may depend upon your knowledge, skill, and experience - especially in the RCN, where mistakes in operations can lead to mass casualty or fatalities. Never forget that fact. Take the time, learn your role, be the best leader you can be.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Hi, I would like to enlist to become a Naval Warfare Officer and from what I understand with the DEO you start as an Acting Sub-Lieutenant after basic military training. Does that mean that at the end of the nine-year contract, you will potentially have a higher rank than those who enlisted with the ROTP, for example ? Because I imagine that in general, you finish the nine years as a Lieutenant, but with the DEO, is it easier to finish as a Lieutenant Commander ?

Thank you in advance for your help.

If you are comparing it to ROTP, you'll be further down the NWO career path, because 4 of their years on contract is at university, which you would have already completed. They'll probably have knocked off NETPO and some other OJT during summer breaks in those 4 years, but you'll be through all that within your first year (including basic training).

Other than that, career progression is about the same, in terms of how long it takes to get through the training and boards to get operational funcitonal point (OFP), which is where you get you Lt(N) rank. After that, NWOs need to do a fair bit more training and postings, as well as usually get things like Command Qualification before they get into the LCdr range, and no one is doing that in 9 years in either stream.

The difference with DEO is you don't have mandatory service period to repay your university time (2 months for every month of school) so if you decide it's not for you you don't have to repay the cost of tuition and the salary you were paid during the school semesters (prorated based on time served over total time for payback). Plus you'd typically be a functional adult that has had to pay bills and be semi responsible (soft shot at RMC grads).

 

[ytz]

Straight line comparisons are difficult.

The time as ROTP is to get a degree and some training done. So the real comparison is commissioned time which starts for DEOs after Basic and for ROTP at graduation.

At the point of commissioning, the ROTP candidate likely has an advantage because they have completed more training than a DEO.

Getting promoted to LCDR and beyond is competitive though. It's not guaranteed. And it's not clear at all that DEOs have an advantage. RMC grads have French which is usually worth several points towards promotion. A lot of DEOs and civ u ROTP don't. The ROTP kids also get time learning and getting mentored and building a network which is an intangible benefit. As an example, I'm at the Space Wing and have mentored several RMC Officer Cadets this summer on what coursework to do to get ahead. By comparison, the summers a DEO spent as a university student aren't likely to help their military career.

The only way you'll be more competitive as a DEO, is if you're coming in with graduate degrees, French (or English for Francis) and/or relevant professional experience which will directly impact your work performance. These are the only DEOs I've seen promoted to Maj/LCdr faster than average.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Straight line comparisons are difficult.

The time as ROTP is to get a degree and some training done. So the real comparison is commissioned time which starts for DEOs after Basic and for ROTP at graduation.

At the point of commissioning, the ROTP candidate likely has an advantage because they have completed more training than a DEO.

Getting promoted to LCDR and beyond is competitive though. It's not guaranteed. And it's not clear at all that DEOs have an advantage. RMC grads have French which is usually worth several points towards promotion. A lot of DEOs and civ u ROTP don't. The ROTP kids also get time learning and getting mentored and building a network which is an intangible benefit. As an example, I'm at the Space Wing and have mentored several RMC Officer Cadets this summer on what coursework to do to get ahead. By comparison, the summers a DEO spent as a university student aren't likely to help their military career.

The only way you'll be more competitive as a DEO, is if you're coming in with graduate degrees, French (or English for Francis) and/or relevant professional experience which will directly impact your work performance. These are the only DEOs I've seen promoted to Maj/LCdr faster than average.

I think the take away for NWO specifically, no one is getting OFP, D level, ORO and Command qual in their initial contract, unless they come in already fully qualified in a lot of that in the USN, RN etc and can get PLARd. I don't know if anyone would even be eligible for promotion to LCdr in their first 9 years, and 12-15 years ish is probably more likely, just with the number of quals, OJT and tours to do along the way. Failing key quals after OFP would extend that time, but at least there are a few 'dry' streams now so they can still progress.

NTOs is slightly faster, but not much, due to length of OFP, 10ish years for DEO would be at the front of most peers, and again 12ish years more typical (with some people taking longer or not getting promoted).

Navy log is probably the fastest, because the trade training is so short, and with their experience on the Navy side they seem to stack up better than their peers but still 9 years would be streaming.

If promotion is you only goal, regardless of the time, it will all suck in different ways, you will probably also suck at core aspects of your job, and generally be a terrible leader. Better off taking a pass and sticking to standard careers in the civvie side.

 

[ytz]

I think the take away for NWO specifically, no one is getting OFP, D level, ORO and Command qual in their initial contract, unless they come in already fully qualified in a lot of that in the USN, RN etc and can get PLARd. I don't know if anyone would even be eligible for promotion to LCdr in their first 9 years, and 12-15 years ish is probably more likely, just with the number of quals, OJT and tours to do along the way.

Really depends on the SCRIT. I'm not navy. So not familiar. How do those quals score out on the SCRIT? Are any of them hard requirements for promotion? Most trades will have an EPZ after 4 years. But yes, realistically most trades will obviously take a lot longer than that.

Fastest I've ever seen was a pilot 2LT I mentored in 2014. Wings in 2015. Major in 2020. LCOL in 2024. He was an exceptional individual who joined the CAF at 35 after making junior executive at an auto parts manufacturer at 30. He was exceptionally hard-working as a 2LT. When not on course, he did every secondary duty and PD course he could. Didn't waste a minute. Even as a 2LT. Needless to say, that kind of attitude and work ethic is rare. And it still took him 7-8 years of commissioned service to make Major.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Really depends on the SCRIT. I'm not navy. So not familiar. How do those quals score out on the SCRIT? Are any of them hard requirements for promotion? Most trades will have an EPZ after 4 years. But yes, realistically most trades will obviously take a lot longer than that.

Fastest I've ever seen was a pilot 2LT I mentored in 2014. Wings in 2015. Major in 2020. LCOL in 2024. He was an exceptional individual who joined the CAF at 35 after making junior executive at an auto parts manufacturer at 30. He was exceptionally hard-working as a 2LT. When not on course, he did every secondary duty and PD course he could. Didn't waste a minute. Even as a 2LT. Needless to say, that kind of attitude and work ethic is rare. And it still took him 7-8 years of commissioned service to make Major.

A lot less scrit, a lot more is just time with a lot of OJT and developmental postings. OFP is 3-4 years (depending on platforms, sea time, course availability etc etc). D level courses are 3-4 months plus a 1-2 year posting. ORO is a 3 or 4 month course, then a 1-2 year posting. Usually a shore posting after that, then Command course (3 months?) then generally in promotion zone and merit listed for XO. ORO is merit listed, D levels are sort of tiered in terms of ops tempo so some screening for those.

Also things like BWK qual has some mulligans every year, board for OFP has mulligans every year, and Command course has some as well (although less then previously).

NWO and NTO trades are both old school, in that the OJTs consist of class training, practical OJT with specific sea going requirements, as well as a final oral board. I'm NTO, and my final board, after 3ish years of shore based training and a bit under a year at sea, was about a 4 hour epic, with some very detailed technical as well as some admin questions in front of 2 Cdrs and a LCdr (as a SLt). My post OFP head of department board, after being merit selected for the posting and a year of OJT, was a 5.5 hour board, with a Cdr NTO, Command qualified Cdr NWO and a LCdr NTO.

The NWOs have shorter oral boards, but longer OJTs for BWK, with a lot of practical requirements that have to be done at sea. They experinment with VR once in a while but then the quality of people at sea tends to be shit.

With all that, even the top performers with a fairy god father (or an Admiral relative) would absolutely struggle to get LCdr in 9 years on the initial contract as a DEO. Plus all of that would absolutely suck, as even people that love it have bad days where they want to quit.

May be the occasional unicorn, but with the key postings required for progression, and the experience they get out of them as a SLt and Lt(N), I would absolutely hate to run into someone as an XO or CO that skipped through those key postings in a race to a 2 and a half. A few bad COs and XOs have cost the RCN hundreds of qualified NCMs, with half of an entire crew of 250 VRing after one deployment, so the impact on the institution is hard to understate.

 

[dapaterson]

A few bad COs and XOs have cost the RCN hundreds of qualified NCMs, with half of an entire crew of 250 VRing after one deployment, so the impact on the institution is hard to understate.

Future Admiral!

 

[Navy_Pete]

Future Admiral!

Sadly accurate.

 

[ytz]

@Navy_Pete

Sincerely appreciate the insight.


As to the original question, I don't think civvies understand that promotion to Senior Officer ranks are competitive. And that's where the idea that DEOs could get there faster comes from. In general, I would give the edge to ROTP and specifically RMC to get promoted ahead. But it also varies very much by person. There are some real go-getters who will go all out and overcome any obstacle thrown their way.

With DEOs the maturity helps. But the lack of a network, the lack of second language and just lower knowledge on how the CAF works can slow them down. Average RMC kid is graduating with BBB Second Language, 4 CAFJODs, at least 1-2 phases of trades training done and a whole Rolodex of contacts. For a DEO without immersion as a kid, the above represents at least 1-2 years worth of work to catch up.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@Navy_Pete

Sincerely appreciate the insight.


As to the original question, I don't think civvies understand that promotion to Senior Officer ranks are competitive. And that's where the idea that DEOs could get there faster comes from. In general, I would give the edge to ROTP and specifically RMC to get promoted ahead. But it also varies very much by person. There are some real go-getters who will go all out and overcome any obstacle thrown their way.

With DEOs the maturity helps. But the lack of a network, the lack of second language and just lower knowledge on how the CAF works can slow them down. Average RMC kid is graduating with BBB Second Language, 4 CAFJODs, at least 1-2 phases of trades training done and a whole Rolodex of contacts. For a DEO without immersion as a kid, the above represents at least 1-2 years worth of work to catch up.

Those are all great points; I came in with a french immersion background, did an 8 week course refresher, and got up to CCB so was good to go for pretty much the next 20 years. Getting trade qual took a lot of work, and promotion was not a gimme (with subsequent promotions being more competitive with far less positions available).

So much of it is variable by the person, really hard to say if there is really a difference either way; some people flake out during DP1, some do great on the coursing and then fall apart on the divisional/leadership side, and others rock and roll the whole way. Availability of courses and some other things out of your hands can play a factor as well. Sometimes blind luck to be in the right place factors in as well.

I think generally, switched on people that work hard will progress quickly regardless of entrance stream, and background life experience will help a lot. If getting promoted and making money is your goal, I think potentially a lot more opportunity for higher pay outside the RCN once you have the basic quals.

Some of the coolest and some of the most rewarding things I've done were between OCdt and up to Lt(N) ranks, and some of those opportunities that wouldn't have done if I was trying to min/max promotion points have been hugely useful professoinally as well, so I really struggle to understand people whose goal is to hit a rank (vice a particular job or role, that needs promotion to the associated rank).

 

[ytz]

I think generally, switched on people that work hard will progress quickly regardless of entrance stream, and background life experience will help a lot. If getting promoted and making money is your goal, I think potentially a lot more opportunity for higher pay outside the RCN once you have the basic quals.

Some of the coolest and some of the most rewarding things I've done were between OCdt and up to Lt(N) ranks, and some of those opportunities that wouldn't have done if I was trying to min/max promotion points have been hugely useful professoinally as well, so I really struggle to understand people whose goal is to hit a rank (vice a particular job or role, that needs promotion to the associated rank).

Generally agree with this. But going back to the original question, the person was basically asking what can be accomplished within 9 years in uniform. And I think the premise is wrong. It's what can be accomplished in 9 years of commissioned service because that is an apples to apples comparison. And on that count, the DEO beating out the ROTP and especially RMC entrant is rarer.

Regardless of trade, getting second language done is a massive advantage. Especially in a system where SLT is difficult to get in a timely manner, and especially when working. Getting to BBB from zero takes a year long course. And that's 4 points on every scrit. So unless you have immersion as a kid, that DEO is automatically at a one year disadvantage. And that's if they actually get the course. Having to learn that much Second Language with short courses here and there is difficult and will probably have some impact on job performance and professional development elsewhere. For reference, getting to AAA requires 4 levels of 150 hrs each that are either done at 5 weeks full time or 10 weeks of half days. How many supervisors are allowing their Lt(N) / Capt to do 40 weeks of half days just to get AAA, which is 2 pts on most Scrits? Not even the max 4.

As you point out, this is the wrong goal and wrong mindset to have. And I agree with that. But few are that mature at 25. If they are, they probably are moving up.....

 

[Navy_Pete]

@ytz

All valid points I agree with, and for NWO specifically I don't think anyone is hitting LCdr in 9 years commissioned service. It's a trade with long time to OFP, with a lot of milestones post OFP to get into actual promotion range with a lot of competition. It's gotten better, but still one of the longest DP1s in the CAF, with a lot of critical, merit based post OFP courses to earn your way onto promotion range. Maybe it's a carry over from the original RN training format, which is tough but consistently can produce capable, competent people, but both NWO and NTO have a lot of follow on training and a key qual that take a few more years to get done after OFP.

If you ever meet someone that did that, and didn't have previous service with the RN or something that transferred over, and they aren't literally walking on water, I would keep my back to a bulkhead around them lol.