Domestic Terrorism/Public Attacks on CAF Personnel

[Fishbone Jones]

It seems some people are busy trying to change the messaging to "deranged man with a gun attacks parliament, therefore we need more gun control". What a lot of people fail to realize is that the terrorist organizations target vulnerable people to act on their behalf. It may involve both a mentally unstable person and a terrorist organization at the same time.

The anti-gun mob is renowned for shamelessly dancing on graves and obfuscating fact in order to further their political agenda. Their self righteous indignation, that not everyone is like them, makes them believe the rights of others don't exist and you're subhuman until you drink their Utopian Kool Aid.  eace:

A pox on their house. :sword:

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Exactly, Colin: the IS** propaganda, which appears to be very slick and professional, aims to exploit the angst of people who have difficulty succeeding in the modern, sophisticated, complex 21st century Western lifestyle. IS** offers them a chance to be "somebody" on a "winning" team. Even the violence is calculated to appeal to a certain sort of young man.

IS** probably has no idea who Michael Zehaf-Bibeau and Martin Couture-Rouleau were, and it doesn't care, either. It's system worked: it planted an idea into a couple of weak, confused minds and just waited for the 'bombs' to detonate themselves.

I'm guessing both young men were "mentally unstable," although, of course, I have no qualifications to make that assessment. But I also suspect, with rather more confidence in my ability to do so, that their radicalization was part of a broad, long term jihadist campaign plan.

This is their genius, and our all too obvious failing.  These sociopathic nut-jobs are just that.  We give them, and by extension, ISIL, too much credit when we allow the narrative to be cast such that they were responding to the dictates of some unifying philosophy or credo.  10 years ago, the same sociopathic nut-jobs would have sought out out White Supremacists, or Basque Seperatists, or Bader Mein Hof or whatever in order to elevate their sociopathic nut-job-ness to something more compelling than just some maladjusted scumbag with mental issues.

These are not radicalized disaffected Canadian youths.  They are socio-paths, nut-jobs and losers and we should not allow them to be anything other than that.

 

[Old Sweat]

This is their genius, and our all too obvious failing.  These sociopathic nut-jobs are just that.  We give them, and by extension, ISIL, too much credit when we allow the narrative to be cast such that they were responding to the dictates of some unifying philosophy or credo.  10 years ago, the same sociopathic nut-jobs would have sought out out White Supremacists, or Basque Seperatists, or Bader Mein Hof or whatever in order to elevate their sociopathic nut-job-ness to something more compelling than just some maladjusted scumbag with mental issues.

These are not radicalized disaffected Canadian youths.  They are socio-paths, nut-jobs and losers and we should not allow them to be anything other than that.

I wonder if your point is not too narrow. These individuals may be vulnerable, but they are vulnerable to a doctrine that seems to provide a structure that has a comforting framework for a personality that is adrift or confused. Odious as the three doctrines you cite above are, they do not, in my humble opinion, have all that much in common with the more radical sects of Islam. Back to the latest two and some of their earlier cohorts, I fear they are, in the eyes of their particular 'ism,' expandable and the return from their passing is more than offset by their effect on Western society.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and a doctrine that has been around for 1400 years and currently expanding and causing havoc over a good chunk of the globe, downplaying the connection will also make you more vulnerable and allow the silent majority of Muslims to remain just that. Notice how quick the mosques are responding, because they are feeling the heat. We just had a Saudi funded Sunni mosque open up in my city, you can bet that they are singing the praises of Unicorn farts. Saudi funded mosques have played a huge part in radicalizing the Islamic world. That issues has to be dealt with sooner or later.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I wonder if your point is not too narrow. These individuals may be vulnerable, but they are vulnerable to a doctrine that seems to provide a structure that has a comforting framework for a personality that is adrift or confused. Odious as the three doctrines you cite above are, they do not, in my humble opinion, have all that much in common with the more radical sects of Islam. Back to the latest two and some of their earlier cohorts, I fear they are, in the eyes of their particular 'ism,' expandable and the return from their passing is more than offset by their effect on Western society.

\

Vulnerable is the key word here.  We have had equally vulnerable people in our society for many a decade, who have always been preyed upon, be it by criminal syndicates, gangs, "motorcycle clubs", and yes, even organised religions - each of which had some sort of compelling ideology / narrative / myth.  What has changed is the rise of global connectivity that has fostered a much larger market of ideologies / myths / narratives, and linked them with a much larger global pool of the "vulnerable".

And so I say again that we offer both the scumbags and the "isms" too much credit when we sensationalize the linkage between the two.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I take PPCLI Guy's point; the information universe has certainly expanded and it allows more "ideologies/myths/narratives" to reach the "vulnerable" ... that's a good word.

I think that the 'vulnerable' are not, usually, mentally ill ~ the mentally ill usually end up harming themselves, not others ~ but they lack the skills to cope with the world that confronts us all, the world with which the MSE Op private and the day labourer and the gas station attendant all cope well enough. The vulnerable are over at the left hand side of the bell curve* ...

... they aren't on the far left, with the truly mentally disabled, rather they are on the left edge of the second stanard deviation - not quite disabled, but not as able as needed to be anything but a socio-economic failure.

But, I concede that the vulnerable, like the poor, are always with us (and they're often poor, too) and they often drift towards organizations like the Orange Order, Communists, Fascists and Nazis, Aryan Nations and, now, IS**.

But I do think that religiously based ideologies are very, very powerful: they offer a certainty that e.g. communism or fascism cannot, they promise paradise ~ for centuries Christianity offered the miserable poor (99.9% of the population) hope that they could go to heaven and receive their just 'reward' for the lives of grinding poverty they endured on earth. It worked. Islam, I believe, offers a lot more than 72 virgins ... it, too, promises something even more desirable: success.

I think Michael Zehaf-Bibeau and Martin Couture-Rouleau were failures and, what's more, I suspect they knew they were failures and, above all else, they wanted to succeed, at something, at be accepted into something.

That means I think there is more to IS** propaganda than meets the eye. I fear that the IS** version of Goebbels is as good as the original and, for that reason, I believe we should take self radicalized "lone wolves" seriously, not write them off as "nut cases."

_____
* May-Britt Moser Xi Jinping, Isamu Akasaki and e.g. Gen Nicholas Carter are all over on the right hand side

 

[Edward Campbell]

... Barring any further statement/clarification by RCMP, this wording suggests to me that OPP'll primarily take apart who did what when inside Parliament, but it doesn't sound like a review of everything that led to the incident outside Parliament.

Here's a report about some of the problems that bedevil simple security, much less counter-terrorism: silos/stovepipes and jurisdictional disputes (some of which are, actually rooted in the Constitution).

 

[The Bread Guy]

I am writing to you from Europe, where I am currently undertaking an official visit, to let you know that my thoughts are with you at this difficult time. The Canadian Armed Forces is very much a family, and together we are mourning the loss of two comrades and the wounding of another. To all who have been affected by the recent despicable events in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and in Ottawa, including fellow soldiers, friends and family members, my heart and the hearts of all Canadians go out to you.

These attacks have given all Canadians reason to pause and reflect upon the contributions of those who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces. While in Poland, the Netherlands and Belgium, I am participating in solemn ceremonies in locations where brave Canadians lost their lives in the First and Second World Wars. While the circumstances of those conflicts differed greatly from the challenges we face today, the bravery and dedication of our men and women in uniform remain constant. I have laid wreaths in communities and cemeteries in the memory of all Canadian servicemen and women, including Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Corporal Nathan Cirillo. To do so as your commander-in-chief on behalf of all Canadians is a great honour.

Everywhere I have been on this visit, people speak gratefully about the contributions of Canadian Armed Forces members, past and present. You should be very proud of your sense of duty and your commitment to defending the rights and freedoms we cherish in a democratic society. I will stand with you once again during this year’s Remembrance Week to pay tribute to those who have so bravely served Canada. I am certain that you will continue to find support from each other and from all Canadians during this challenging time, and I wish you the very best as we move ahead together.

David Johnston
Governor General and Commander-in-Chief

Statement here

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Here's a report about some of the problems that bedevil simple security, much less counter-terrorism: silos/stovepipes and jurisdictional disputes (some of which are, actually rooted in the Constitution).

A possible problem that needs to be worked out is the overload of information on a new tac net. If it was all inclusive people may be walking all over each other. Try getting a word in edge wise  with combined arms when the tankers start doing their thing. Bloody hard.  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

Without taking away from ANY person's contribution to keeping folks safe this week, am I the only one thinking it might be a touch early to single out any one individual?

The petition to honour Sergeant-at-Arms Kevin Vickers with the Cross of Valour -- Canada's highest civilian bravery decoration -- for shooting the Parliament Hill terrorist is gaining steam.

Vickers is credited with firing the first shots that brought down killer Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, 32, last Wednesday outside the entrance to the Library of Parliament, where he reached after gunning down Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, 24, who was standing sentry at the National War Memorial.

The Cross of Valour is the second-highest bravery award that can be given in Canada next to the Victoria Cross, which is only bestowed upon Canadian Forces members or allies serving under Canadian military command.

Public Safety Minister Stephen Blaney told reporters in Ottawa on Monday that the petition, launched by Sun News contributor Kevin Gaudet, is a great idea.

“I would sign that petition because I am very grateful to be here today to help keep our country safe,” Blaney said.

Gaudet said he was moved by Vickers' heroic actions last Wednesday.

“It’s the ultimate act of bravery," he said. "He was in the line of fire.”

NDP MP Paul Dewar took it a step further, saying that it’s important to recognize all involved in keeping MPs safe during the shootings.

“Kevin should be praised, but anything we can do to recognize the group which saved our lives would be great as well,” Dewar said Monday.

Annabelle Cloutier, a spokesman for Governor General David Johnston, said that thanks to Gaudet’s initiative, a recommendation will be put forward to have Vickers receive the honour.

Cloutier said they are also looking into how best to recognize the “courage and bravery” of all involved ....

More from Sun News here.

 

[cryco]

I agree with you. From the video that was taken during the gunfght, it looks like there was a lot of security right behind him waiting to take the shot. I just so happened that Mr Vickers took the shot that killed him. Kudos to him for that.
Btw, do we have any info on how many times the criminal was shot, and where?

 

[cupper]

I agree with you. From the video that was taken during the gunfght, it looks like there was a lot of security right behind him waiting to take the shot. I just so happened that Mr Vickers took the shot that killed him. Kudos to him for that.
Btw, do we have any info on how many times the criminal was shot, and where?

It seems to me that there was something about this in the briefing by the RCMP Commissioner(?) that was given about the unfolding of events. From what I can recall it was quite a few rounds that hit him.

 

[The_Falcon]

It seems to me that there was something about this in the briefing by the RCMP Commissioner(?) that was given about the unfolding of events. From what I can recall it was quite a few rounds that hit him.

The CBC had a video, saying Mr. Vickers fired the entire magazine in his pistol at point blank range at the perp.  From the video they used google maps walk through feature to show where this all took place.  Basically the perp, was hiding behind a pillar, kitty corner to Mr. Vickers office.

 

[cryco]

thanks HM, i found that video. The guy was peppered. Wouldn't matter where he was hit with that number of rounds that got him.

 

[cupper]

Here is the CBC article I was referring to.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-shooting-the-face-to-face-encounter-that-ended-the-attack-on-parliament-1.2812802

 

[Edward Campbell]

Just a slightly  ff topic: reminder:

    CSEC is, amongst other things, a foreign intelligence gathering agency ~ it spies on foreigners, listens to their phone calls, and reads their mail;* and

    CSIS is a counter-intelligence agency, as it's name implies, it is concerned with our security here at home. CSIS might need to gather some foreign intelligence to support its counter-intelligence goals,
    but, most often, its goals, the things it goes looking for, will be different from the things CSEC goes after.

It is generally agreed that intelligence and counter-intelligence functions ought to be kept (reasonably) separate and discrete.

_____
* Not "gentlemen" by Henry Stimson's infamous definition

More about this issue here. The knee jerk reaction is to:

    1. Think that counter-terrorism is more important than many, many other intelligence and security missions - I'm not sure that is the case, at all; and

    2. To want to expand CSIS, just because it's there; also a wrong answer.

I think we need a Secret Intelligence Service, separate from CSEC, the SIGINT service, and from CSIS, the counter-intelligence/security service. But: I doubt that CSEC or a new SIS would be focues much, and certainly not mainly, on counter-terrorism. CSIS has the authority to work overseas in support of its missions, it my need more capacity (money and people).

We need to also remember that CSIS is not a law enforcement agency; it does not bring people to the bar of justice; that's the job of national, provincial and local police forces and crown prosecutors ~ they too need more, better focused authority and resources (money and people).

 

[Gunner98]

Let's look at the events of last Wednesday and how Canadians would have responded to ends of the spectrum:

1.  Gunman bypasses War Memorial and goes straight to parliament and starts shooting senior officials.  State funerals, tightening security, nation in mourning?  Flowers surround parliament buildings. Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public since civilians, in particular bureaucrats are most at risk.

2.  Gunman wakes up and is too lazy to leave the Ottawa Mission, starts shooting homeless and is overhwelmed and killed by a homeless woman.  Is she immediately nominated for a medal of bravery?  Are homeless people quietly buried in pauper's graves?  Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public or are we just glad most of soldiers and veterans won't become homeless people at risk?

The precedent set by the nation's reaction over the detour that he made to the War Memorial is shocking.  How do we respond if things become more frequent?

 

[Remius]

Let's look at the events of last Wednesday and how Canadians would have responded to ends of the spectrum:

1.  Gunman bypasses War Memorial and goes straight to parliament and starts shooting senior officials.  State funerals, tightening security, nation in mourning?  Flowers surround parliament buildings. Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public since civilians, in particular bureaucrats are most at risk.

2.  Gunman wakes up and is too lazy to leave the Ottawa Mission, starts shooting homeless and is overhwelmed and killed by a homeless woman.  Is she immediately nominated for a medal of bravery?  Are homeless people quietly buried in pauper's graves?  Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public or are we just glad most of soldiers and veterans won't become homeless people at risk?

The precedent set by the nation's reaction over the detour that he made to the War Memorial is shocking.  How do we respond if things become more frequent?

I'm not getting your point.  The comparison is a poor one if you ask me.

 

[Gunner98]

This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?

 

[Remius]

This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?

While we are all equal (in theory at least) in most things.  How one dies, is killed, under what circumstances, in what environment, in what conditions however is not equal. 

Thus receiving an unequal amount of attention and or reaction (justified or not).