Draft dodgers get memorial

[meni0n]

Unfreaking believable. Only in Canada can draft dodgers get a memorial.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/09/08/draft_dogers040908.html

 

[Lance Wiebe]

So far it's only a pipe dream.

Here's hoping it stays that way.

Who would fund such a piece of garbage?  A memorial for "courageous draft dodgers"?  A memorial to cowards is more like it!

What garbage!

 

[Shec]

If they wouldn"t serve their country what makes one think they would serve ours?

I can only trust that any such memorial would feature a big yelllow stripe.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

Could be worse....anybody see that Simpsons episode where they visit Toronto, and see the "Dodgers of Foreign Wars" legion/museum?

Just imagine using your taxes for that! 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well as long as it's far enough back in the bush up there, where it can't be seen by the civilised population, who cares. It's a free country. they're entitled to their opinion. We fought for it, they take advantage of it. It'll give the bears and birds somewhere to congregate as a waste station. Maybe it'll get cleaned once a year when the draft dodgers show up to harvest the wacky tabaky they've been growing out there for the last forty years. More likely one of them will steal it, smelt it and turn it in for cents on the pound at the nearest scrap yard. They've always been lost in the fog of self righteousness and aren't worth the time to bother about. There's a reason most of them are in BC ;D

 

[ackland]

If they are all so proud of themselves why don't they ante up and try and put the memorial in there home country? Oh yeah that is bcause they are chicken S***s in the first place. Only here would we allow people to errect amemorial to cowards. Standing up for their rights my a** they should get no rights. If you are not willing to sacrifice for your freedom then you should lose it. :mg:

 

[big_castor]

Will the memorial also honour those who joined the National Guard to avoid being sent overseas ?

 

[Slim]

This will mark the courageous legacy of Vietnam War resisters and the Canadians who helped them resettle in this country during that tumultuous era,"

If the Canadian Government allows that go up on public land I will offically be ashamed of this country! :rage: Nothing more than a slap in the face and the message thats its ok to run and hide when your country needs you. Fucking pathetic! :

Slim

 

[nbk]

Will the memorial also honour those who joined the National Guard to avoid being sent overseas ?

Ohh snap!

Check mate.

But its still a dumb idea.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

PLATOON WILL URINATE ON DRAFT DODGER MEMORIAL  BY SQUADS.....
SQUAD ONE.......ZIPPPPPPPPPPPPP

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I certainly don't think a memorial is due, but it does take a certain bravery to oppose something as unpopular as the Vietnam War.  You're assuming that all the "draft dodgers" were simply cowards.  Probably true in many cases, but many of them also acted on deeply held convictions.

Considering the US did lose the war, the south did revert to Communism, and seeing that the world, capitalism or democracy didn't come to a crashing halt, one doesn't see the logic in criticizing those who refused to serve, especially in light of some of the many unfavourable things to come out of that war - the high civilian losses, for example, or the fact that those directing the war (McNamara, for one) knew there was no "exit strategy" in place.

I am reading Shelby Stanton's history of US Ground forces in Vietnam right now.  Masterfully written.  Avoids the political aspects utterly and concentrates on pure military history.  I suspect many of those posting in this thread are using the same lens.  It's a faulty lens, however.  As much as I admire the soldiers who fought there, and moreover, the ideals which they claimed to have been fighting for, I find it hard to criticize those who didn't want to serve in what can properly be called the costliest foriegn policy mistake the United States ever made.

I wouldn't build a memorial to them, either, though. More like one of those subjects best left alone.

 

[Jarnhamar]

heh. Losers.

What about a memorial for that Kandahar family?

These guys remind me of people who lie about their military service or soldiers who give themselves medals. They want to be recognized for nothing.

 

[GDawg]

I have no sympathy for their cause. They refused to fight in Vietnam, thats understandable, but they also refused to fight for political change in their homeland. These men chose the path of least resistance, how does that make them admirable political activists? Buddist monks were setting themselves on fire in protest to the war and all these guys do is light a piece of paper on fire and hop on a bus? I call them cowards.

How about a memorial for the upwards of 40000 Canadians who volunteered to fight in Vietnam?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

How about a memorial for the upwards of 40000 Canadians who volunteered to fight in Vietnam?

There already is one, or at least, to the Canadians that died.  I thought it was similar to the Wall in Washington - can't remember where it is located, somewhere in Ontario.  A google search ought to find it for you.

As for fighting for political change in the US, what would that have done? They already won - LBJ refused to run for a second term, and Nixon put the finishing touches on US withdrawal from Vietnam and negotiated the Paris deal.  That being the case, why volunteer for a war that was already lost?

I think it is an incredibly sensitive issue and not nearly as black and white as many of you seem to think.

As for pissing on said commemoration, all I have to say is remember the Golden Rule.  Picture someone urinating on the cenotaph next Rememberance Day.  The values these servicemen supposedly fought for in Vietnam include the right to dissent, to free speech, and to freedom of expression - as long as others aren't being hurt.  I don't see what urinating on a memorial would prove, other than the lack of class of the perpetrator.  If the draft dodgers want to think of themselves as heroes, that's their right.  Why turn them into martyrs on top of it?

Now, if the government were to actually approve of this, that is a different story, but I don't see it as really all that different from the pathetic ninja club we have on the board here - call yourself whatever you want, just don't expect official sanction when it defies the precepts of what are normally considered the maintenance of good order.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Viet Nam Veteran's Memorial is located here in Windsor on the riverfront, facing Detroit. It is a mini representation of the wall in Washington, but with only Canadian names. It has a large turn out from both sides of the border whenever a service is held. It has only been defaced once to my knowledge (a brick broke the marble facing of one of the facades) but was immediatley fixed. The bunch here in Windsor are a quiet lot, but always get the utmost respect whenever they show themselves in public.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The Viet Nam Veteran's Memorial is located here in Windsor on the riverfront, facing Detroit. It is a mini representation of the wall in Washington, but with only Canadian names. It has a large turn out from both sides of the border whenever a service is held. It has only been defaced once to my knowledge (a brick broke the marble facing of one of the facades) but was immediatley fixed. The bunch here in Windsor are a quiet lot, but always get the utmost respect whenever they show themselves in public.

We have an active Vietnam Veterans of Canada chapter here in Calgary.  I've seen them in "uniform" a couple of times, I always make a point of saying "Welcome Home" to them, which is the thing to say to a Vietnam Veteran.  They seem a bit stunned at first, but they always know what it means.

I would probably not as much as shake hands with one of the so-called "draft dodgers" but I probably wouldn't call them cowards either.  They are in a different class than the scum who enlist for college money then head for the hills when a shooting war erupts.

Vietnam was simply bad for everyone involved; everyone who lived through it made their choices.  I have more respect, like you all, for those who chose to serve their country and do what they thought was right.  I have to seriously wonder about the motives of those erecting this memorial - what good does it to do reopen old wounds?

Seems about as revisionist as granting pardons to the so-called "cowards" we executed in the First World War.  Just leave it be.

 

[ackland]

I again ask if they are such heroes are they not heroes in the states not here. why use our land and possibly our tax dollars for an american set of ideals. If their veiw was so comendable then why not erect this back in the stats purhaps beside teh memorial in D.C. they had teh right but only on the spilt blood of thier fathers or grandfathers. Who fought in europe for the freedom of others. Why respect these people who were not willing to do the same for the vietnamese. Yeah the war was unpopular and the Command Element was all F***ed but Look at our armyu today and we see lot's of people willing to serve in less than ideal conditions.

 

[logau]

Nelson BC is the Home Base of the 54th Bn from WW1 and supports a great memorial to all Canadian Service persons from all our wars.

I am from this area and they sure have their share of wackos.

Two Naval VCs came from Nelson - Roland Bourke who ran a PT boat at Ostend in 1918 and Hampton Grey who sank a Jap Cruiser and gave his life in the attempt.

See the link below at the bottom.  

As for these artists...................... hoo boy!

The topic of draft dodgers is still hot after many years.

Keep in mind that from the Civil War onwards it was not   un American to avoid service and many sold their call up places to less wealthy indivs.

In Canada - the Governments of the day have done all they can to avoid coalition DRAFTS since the end of WW1. So I ask the tough talking ruff puffs in this thread (that's a Vietnam term in case you don't know) is turn about fair play? It only invites such stuff as the links that Stephen Harper is making that if we don't support the USA - we don't sell beef to them - we have trouble selling wood to them. And if China has its way we'll sell less and less to them.

In the early 20s Winston Churchill wanted to get us ensnared in a contingency op called the CHANAK crisis (look up CHANAK and CHURCHILL on the Web)

We dived back in WW2 - but tried to keep as much manpower in Canada and did not implement a draft until late in the war (actually both wars WW1 and WW2). We were in deep with the Brits until 1956 at the Suez Crisis when we wised up and said - no more open ended quagmires like South Africa - WW1 - WW2.

The USA only had the draft from 1949 to 1969 so you're really only talking say six years of active draft dodgers - maybe marginal people at the best - and marginal soldiers when led by a marginal pipeline which was only marginally committed to the war in South East Asia.

My take? The USA in the Vietnam War was as reliable as the Canadian Government is now with respect to Defence matters and both treat their soldiers like cannon fodder.

So we should be careful on jumping on the America Love it Or Leave it Bandwagon because change starts at home and the love it or leave it routine always ends up with some REDNECKS who may have no idea of why they say what they say getting the crap kicked out of them.

The draft dodgers may well have taken a page from Canada's books but saying we'll sit this one out. And note what war we are sitting out now?

To conclude now - the draft dodger generation is now in power and has been for some time.

Read your Ranger Handbook - you've only got you and your team to help you out of the next tight spot these idiots at the top of the Government will gladly send the stern jawed boys and girls off to.

Quick! Where the heck is SUDAN?

Finally - for all your future RSM's Generals and defence fans - Get this book - The History of Military Thought by Azar Gatt - you will be pleasantly surprised. 900 pages covering topics on organized militaries from 1500 forward. http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryOther/Military/?ci=0199247625&view=usa

 

[dutchie]

Memorials should be erected for extraordinary people who acted in a commedable and exempary manner. IMHO, Vietnam draft dodgers fall into three categories:
1-Cowards:those who didn't necessarily oppose the war, but were unwilling to risk their lives under any curcumstance.
2-'Contientious objectors': Those who's morals or beleifs were in direct conflict with the war.
3-Anti-government/establishment types: those who oppose anything the government wants them to do. They aren't necessarily cowards, but could be, and thet might not have any moral objections, but again, they could have. Their real problem is an unwillingness to conform to anything the governemt/establishment wants.

We could argue the merits of the basis of resistance to the draft, but none of these people acted commedably. Draft dodgers are people we should tolerate, not commemorate.

 

[ackland]

Memorials should be erected for extraordinary people who acted in a commedable and exempary manner. IMHO, Vietnam draft dodgers fall into three categories:
1-Cowards:those who didn't necessarily oppose the war, but were unwilling to risk their lives under any curcumstance.
2-'Contientious objectors'. Those who's morals or beleifs were in direct conflict with the war.
3-Anti-government/establishment types-those who oppose anything the government wants them to do. They aren't necessarily cowards, but could be, and thet might not have any moral objections, but again, they could have. Their real problem is an unwillingness to conform to anything the governemt/establishment wants.

We could argue the merits of the basis of resistance to the draft, but none of these people acted commedably. Draft dodgers are people we should tolerate, not commeorate.

I'll buy that for a dollar