Dress reg's changed?

[JANE@home]

Why not require close-cropped hair - it looks professional, it's hygenic, and it's substantially more difficult to get caught in anything or to set on fire. When did civvie hair-style concerns start becoming reasonable considerations for the CF? Need long, flowing hair? Don't join the CF. Seems simple enough.

Actually i cut mine off (it was way long) , i couldn't fit my helmet over my stupid bun so after the ex i went and cut it all off...ahhh....so much better now

Jane

 

[Glorified Ape]

Actually i cut mine off (it was way long) , i couldn't fit my helmet over my stupid bun so after the ex i went and cut it all off...ahhh....so much better now

Jane

Now if we could only manage to get long hair prohibited in the CF, we could spare others the suffering you experienced by having long hair.  ;D

 

[Strike]

I have a hard enough time finding a date as it is.  Now you want me to cut my hair?  Once the guy finds out what I do, well, we all know what he'd be thinking.  LOL.  BTW, I have a big head and look horrible with short hair.  (Done that already)

 

[matt22]

(this is not designed to make anybody mad, but a sincere question)

If people are always so concerned with the fact that there is a gender gap in the forces, why does the administration not create "one set of standards" that everyone could follow. I believe that this might just be the way to deal with this situation without blowing it into something larger and out of context. Yes, it is a sacrifice, but thats the army.

 

[NCRCrow]

Lets talk about dress Horror stories.

I was on TD in Kingston for 2 weeks last summer and saw some amazing orders of dress.

While driving through the PMQ's, my co-pilot (Combat Arms type) :threat: said look at that. I slowed down. It was this OS (Ordinary Seaman) wearing slippers eating an apple with no headdress on his way to work.
I had to restrain my winger, as he tore Slippers a new hole. That was 0730 in the morning, needless to say we visited his WO for a coffee and chat and we arrived late to our conference.

The next morning we are at the messhall on the McNaughton side and this Pte. female in uniform walks in with a ring a ding in her nose.

Geez, ol' infantry eagle eyes(co-pilot) spots her from a 30 yrds and loses it, old army style.We go back to the same school to talk to the same WO for another coffee.

Late for our conference again......... as we drive past the school at 1600, a platoon is doing foot drill and my co-pilot cracks a wry smile.

Another reason for braids for females at sea, is that hair dryers in the mess decks are way too loud and would not be appreciated.

as for NDHQ, What can u do????

 

[Glorified Ape]

I have a hard enough time finding a date as it is.   Now you want me to cut my hair?   Once the guy finds out what I do, well, we all know what he'd be thinking.   LOL.   BTW, I have a big head and look horrible with short hair.   (Done that already)

Hey, I look dumb with a shaved head but what can you do? I get used to looking dumb - it happens pretty often.

(this is not designed to make anybody mad, but a sincere question)

If people are always so concerned with the fact that there is a gender gap in the forces, why does the administration not create "one set of standards" that everyone could follow. I believe that this might just be the way to deal with this situation without blowing it into something larger and out of context. Yes, it is a sacrifice, but thats the army.

I think, though I could be wrong since I'm far from militarily experienced, that the discrepancies in standards between men and women were probably the result of over-capitulation to the PC crowd. Equality wasn't enough, it had to be equal access to all the good stuff, with as much avoidance of equality in the bad stuff as possible - like having to meet the same physical standards on entry and re-certification or having as strict guidelines on hair. I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with physical standards in the police and fire departments but I'm not absolutely positive. I recall some woman suing the government because the fire department's health standards were too difficult for women to reach. Boo-hoo - the standards are there for a reason.

 

[Strike]

I think, though I could be wrong since I'm far from militarily experienced, that the discrepancies in standards between men and women were probably the result of over-capitulation to the PC crowd. Equality wasn't enough, it had to be equal access to all the good stuff, with as much avoidance of equality in the bad stuff as possible - like having to meet the same physical standards on entry and re-certification or having as strict guidelines on hair. I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with physical standards in the police and fire departments but I'm not absolutely positive. I recall some woman suing the government because the fire department's health standards were too difficult for women to reach. Boo-hoo - the standards are there for a reason.

Actually, it's only the fitness standards that are different, taking into account the different physiologies between men and women.  An example is that women tend to be able to do sit-ups w/o difficulty but, due to C of G, have problems w/ full push-ups.  Now, when it comes to something like the battle fitness test, the standards are the same, because the test is based on real world requirements.  This is pretty much the same way things are run for both police and firefighters.  The woman who sued the fire department did so because the fitness standards were not representative for men and women even though they already had a task/procedure based fitness test in addition to the fitness test.

Catch what I mean?

Ape,

As for the shaved head, personally, I like the look.

 

[qor556]

Actually, it's only the fitness standards that are different, taking into account the different physiologies between men and women.  An example is that women tend to be able to do sit-ups w/o difficulty but, due to C of G, have problems w/ full push-ups.  Now, when it comes to something like the battle fitness test, the standards are the same, because the test is based on real world requirements.  This is pretty much the same way things are run for both police and firefighters.  The woman who sued the fire department did so because the fitness standards were not representative for men and women even though they already had a task/procedure based fitness test in addition to the fitness test.

Catch what I mean?

Ape,

As for the shaved head, personally, I like the look.

Good luck trying to find women to join the army then. Its difficult as it is and times have changed, thats going to go over really well if you need to tell all the women that are joining the army that they need to shave their heads first. Sure, there are going to be some that are OK with it, but realistically, the majority will not.

Except the fitness standard, as i said previously, on the field a soldier is a soldier... it should not be any different. Bullets do not care if you are male or female.

Anyways, during BIQ, SQ and on both genders are held at the same standard. Therefore shouldn't the fitness standard be the same? Its only logical.

 

[George Wallace]

Dress and Deportment in the CF has fallen down in the last fifteen years.  RSMs are not doing their jobs.  As for Cbt Coats being worn over CFs, again the RSMs have dropped the ball.  40 below in Ottawa is no excuse, as most of these guys are only walking from their office to a warm staffcar or to catch a OC Transpo Bus.  I am sure that the issue Gabardine is warm enough for that.  We have to wear it on Remembrance Day or on an Honour Guard waiting for one of those clowns to arrive fashionably late.  RMC types wearing that Mixed Dress futher points to the degradation of our Dress Codes. 

AS for PC policies.  We started with Turbans, and then went to allowing Natives to wear Braids, so why not women?  I believe in a strongly enforced Dress Code, not this nonsense.  It can lay some of it's roots in SHARP Trg and that DIFFERENTIAL Trg where everyone is an 'X' or a' Y'.  BULL!  We wear a UNIFORM so that we are uniform.  Don't promote our differences.  That promotes bias and prejudice.  Promote what makes us the SAME.  In the past, when two Canadian Soldiers approached a body of foreigners on Tour our Professionalism showed in our Uniformity.  Now if we approach as two different 'types', it can cause an incident.  A Palestinian may for instance treat a distinctly Jewish Canadian Soldier in a more hostile manner than if his only distinguishing marks were those of a Canadian Soldier (Neutral).  That "X" and "Y" bullshit is wrong - We should be showing that we are all "Green" (or Blue in the Air Force and Navy).

GW

 

[buzgo]

Dress and Deportment in the CF has fallen down in the last fifteen years.  RSMs are not doing their jobs.  As for Cbt Coats being worn over CFs, again the RSMs have dropped the ball.  40 below in Ottawa is no excuse, as most of these guys are only walking from their office to a warm staffcar or to catch a OC Transpo Bus.  I am sure that the issue Gabardine is warm enough for that.  We have to wear it on Remembrance Day or on an Honour Guard waiting for one of those clowns to arrive fashionably late.  RMC types wearing that Mixed Dress futher points to the degradation of our Dress Codes. 

I'm pretty sure that there was a CANFORGEN released about the coat issue. No one dropped the ball. I've seen CWO Losier (NDHQ CWO) wearing his and he enforces dress policy (attempts to I guess) at NDHQ.

 

[George Wallace]

signalsguy

Think of what you just said......the RSM in charge of NDHQ who enforces dress policy........

As for a CANFORGEN....perhaps there is; but why?  Could it be that someone wanted to justify their wearing a form of Mixed Dress because they don't like to wear a long coat and scarf in the city?

On another point....what happened to those CANEX Parka's we could buy to wear with our CF if we didn't find the Gaberdine appropriate?  I see Air Force Pers wearing theirs.

Don't try to kid a kidder....  ;D

GW

 

[childs56]

I for one have worn the good old gaberdiene to and fro work while marching in -40 weather. I have to say the gortex sure makes a difference. Not to mention if it rains out while cold. All whining aside it is a standard of dress, the old coat really does not cut it for keeping you warm i was shovelling snow last year in the same -40 weather with my gaberdien and it was to the point it really got cold. Not to menton the people at NDHQ should have jackets that arent full of dirt and cam paint as they never see the field, Unless visiting the park is the field. Bottom line here is we need a standard of dress, it may make considerations as to what and where a female can do or a some one of different descent can do, or wear the bottom line is we all need to look as professional as we can at all times. If yuou wear a turban make sure it is the proper one for the job you are doing, a bright orange one in the field does not make me feel to confident about your right to wear one, yes it happend.  if you have to have a nose piercing then for god sakes take it out before you come to work, i dont want to see it. as for the braid issue. in all my time of working in and outside of the military i have been told for any females to keep their hair up and out of the way, ie in a bun or hair net, so as not to get caught on something, sure would suck to get your long hair caught in the breech of a .50cal while firing or the rad fan of a MLVW while checking the transmission fluid level. The comment about bobby pins on the flight line is true, the same can be said about your hair not being up and out of the way, it can may and will get caught in soem form of equipment sooner or later, i seen the after math of a female after her hair got caught on a drill press not a nice picture, had she of had it tied back liek it was suppose to have it would have never got caught..
we have so many excuses for why we need to have things a certain way and we strive to change things so that it is more convienent for ourselves. we never really look at the affects it has on the people we work with, and their morale or safety.
At the end of the day lets all be as professional as we can. And stop whining about how the military wronged me by not allowing my nose piercing or my long hair. And guys if you look like you should be in a 60's concert think about how much you want to be part of an organization that requires you to maintain a level of discipline not sought by most. cheers
UBIQUE

 

[GIJANE]

I have a hard enough time finding a date as it is.   Now you want me to cut my hair?   Once the guy finds out what I do, well, we all know what he'd be thinking.   LOL.   BTW, I have a big head and look horrible with short hair.   (Done that already)

You lost me...what would they be thinking?? I couldn't care care less if men knew what i did  (for a living)

Jane

 

[Glorified Ape]

Actually, it's only the fitness standards that are different, taking into account the different physiologies between men and women.   An example is that women tend to be able to do sit-ups w/o difficulty but, due to C of G, have problems w/ full push-ups.   Now, when it comes to something like the battle fitness test, the standards are the same, because the test is based on real world requirements.   This is pretty much the same way things are run for both police and firefighters.   The woman who sued the fire department did so because the fitness standards were not representative for men and women even though they already had a task/procedure based fitness test in addition to the fitness test.

Catch what I mean?

Ape,

As for the shaved head, personally, I like the look.

On girls, guys, or both?

I think I get you - the problem was that women who could complete the task-based fitness test were being excluded because of the universal standards in the general fitness test? I seem to remember heart-rate ceilings being one of the main problems. Whether that's a good reason to lower the standards is debatable, I guess. While passing the task test does imply an ability to do the things necessary to the job, the physical demands of the job in practical application often exceed the standards required by a task test, from what I understand.

As for the CF, push-ups and such should be the same, I think. If I have to be able to run my weight to a minimum of 6 in the shuttle run, why does a female only have to reach 4? If I have to do at least 19 push-ups, why only 9 for women? I realise it's easier for men to do 19 push-ups (on average) than a women but should we start lowering the physical standards for heavy-set or short men and women because they have to work harder to reach standard? Maybe I'm off base, as I said - I haven't been in long.

As for the shaved heads, did you mean you like them on women? We had a female infantry ocdt. on IAP with us (another platoon) and she went the shaved-head route. I thought she looked better than I do with a shaved head since she didn't have a mean cowlick like mine and her head was a nicer shape. I thought the troops looked alot sharper without pony tails, buns, hair nets, or whisps of hair sticking out from under their berets and helmets, not just because it was neater but because they all looked the same (or as close as you can get).

 

[combat_medic]

I have very long hair, and wear it in a bun all the time. The only time I have ever worn a braid is to fire weapons in the prone position. The bun tends to push my helmet over my eyes, and is a b*tch when trying to keep a sight picture, same with the old Gilligan-stule bush cap (no problems with the new Tillie hat though).

However, yes, I've seen plenty of people abuse the dress regs, men and women alike. I like having a little flexibility in regs for different situations. It's nice to be able to wear a little (tasteful) makeup for a formal mess dinner, and also nice to not have to shove your hair under a helmet in the field, but it can be taken too far, and I that's probably why God invented the CSM - to keep us all in line when it comes to dress and deportment.

Oh, and any mold that would grow in your hair in a bun, would grow just as well inside a braid. Let's just dispell that myth right off the bat.

 

[Strike]

As for the shaved heads, did you mean you like them on women? We had a female infantry ocdt. on IAP with us (another platoon) and she went the shaved-head route. I thought she looked better than I do with a shaved head since she didn't have a mean cowlick like mine and her head was a nicer shape. I thought the troops looked alot sharper without pony tails, buns, hair nets, or whisps of hair sticking out from under their berets and helmets, not just because it was neater but because they all looked the same (or as close as you can get).

Ape,

I meant on guys.  I was trying to boost your ego a bit. ;D

Quite a few guys in my unit have shaved heads.  Some because they are losing their har and others because it feels better under their helmet.  Me?  I throw my braid under my flt suit and the LPSV pretty much holds it there.

As for the whole fitness standard (not task standard) thing, the whole thing is flawed to some extent anyway, as previously pointed out, when considering HR and body side/shape.  I could go on but I would only end up getting mad and going off on a tangent.  Suggest if anyone wants to discuss that then another thread should be started.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Ape,

I meant on guys.   I was trying to boost your ego a bit. ;D

Quite a few guys in my unit have shaved heads.   Some because they are losing their har and others because it feels better under their helmet.   Me?   I throw my braid under my flt suit and the LPSV pretty much holds it there.

As for the whole fitness standard (not task standard) thing, the whole thing is flawed to some extent anyway, as previously pointed out, when considering HR and body side/shape.   I could go on but I would only end up getting mad and going off on a tangent.   Suggest if anyone wants to discuss that then another thread should be started.

Good idea, as for the ego boost - thanks, though I'll see if your opinion's changed should you ever actually see my head.  ;D

 

[dogger1936]

Hi guys. Driving down Montreal road today I saw 3 per's (all maj and above) wearing their cadpat green gortex jacket over thier DEU. Has something changed to allow this or as  Isuspect these members displaying poor dress to our public in the national capital region?

 

[AmmoTech90]

It is allowed (at least in the NCR).  Good practice or not, who knows, take it up with someone on the dress committee.

I suspect it is because the Navy and Air Force are comfortable winter jackets and Army people are too cheap to keep getting the all-weather coat dry cleaned.

Anyone got a Canex parka they are willing to part with and is still in respectable shape btw?

 

[dogger1936]

It is allowed (at least in the NCR).  Good practice or not, who knows, take it up with someone on the dress committee.

I suspect it is because the Navy and Air Force are comfortable winter jackets and Army people are too cheap to keep getting the all-weather coat dry cleaned.

Anyone got a Canex parka they are willing to part with and is still in respectable shape btw?

Thanks I learned something new! I had no idea it was allowed.