Drive by in CFB Gagetown PMQs

[Scratch_043]

Right so if someone breaks into your house and steals your rifle, then goes out and kills someone, you should be responsible for that as well?

Yes, they should, because if the thief was able to get the rifle, and the ammunition, (which, by law, must be stored separately) then there was insufficient security measures taken to prevent such an occurrence.

What we're talking about here though is parents who undoubtedly stored their weapons in an appropriate manner,

Do you know that for sure? if it had been properly secured, then the teens would not be able to gain access.

Is a parent responsible if his 16 year old offspring decides to steal the family car and commit vehicular homicide?

Depends, does the parent have foreknowledge that the teen may want to commit the crime, do they make any effort to keep the keys from the kid? Is the teen licensed to drive, have they been taught by their parents how to drive (if they do not have a license).

What about a teen who stabs someone with a knife from the kitchen? The parents provided access to the knife, so they're responsible, right?

In this case, since there are no regulations on knifes, ie. they can be purchased without ID, there is no regulation on safe storage, no age restriction or licensing system. the knife thing would be treated the same way if it was found on the ground, or bought in the store. The parent would only be held responsible for not talking to their child, seeing if there is anything wrong, etc. there is no way to keep teenagers away from kitchen utensils, period, it would be impractical, where locking up your firearms, is necessarry, as you will not require immediate access, at the moment, and it prevents situations like the one we are talking about now.

The issue is accessibility, it does not matter if it is 'borrowed' by a child, or stolen by another adult, if a gun owner is found negligent in the proper safety and storage of his firearms, he should be held accountable. This is not to say that the other parties should not be charged, they are committing the crime, and should be prepared to do the time.

Basically what I am saying here is this:
LOCK UP YOUR GUNS

Edit: Thanks Bruce, I should really start making my posts shorter

 

[48Highlander]

Yes, they should, because if the thief was able to get the rifle, and the ammunition, (which, by law, must be stored separately) then there was insufficient security measures taken to prevent such an occurrence.

if it had been properly secured, then the teens would not be able to gain access.

Locks exist to keep honest people honest, not to keep criminals out.  I learned to pick locks when I was 12, it's not a difficult proccess.  Breaking or cutting them is even simpler.

Do you know that for sure?

Sorry, no, I don't have any knowledge of how the weapons were stored.  I do however know of other cases where the parents did "lock up their guns", keep the ammunition seperate, etc, and their children still got to the weapons.  In a situation like that, I really don't see how you could hold the parents responsible for anything other than failing to beat some common sense into the little bastards.

Depends, does the parent have foreknowledge that the teen may want to commit the crime, do they make any effort to keep the keys from the kid? Is the teen licensed to drive, have they been taught by their parents how to drive (if they do not have a license).In this case, since there are no regulations on knifes, ie. they can be purchased without ID, there is no regulation on safe storage, no age restriction or licensing system. the knife thing would be treated the same way if it was found on the ground, or bought in the store. The parent would only be held responsible for not talking to their child, seeing if there is anything wrong, etc. there is no way to keep teenagers away from kitchen utensils, period, it would be impractical, where locking up your firearms, is necessarry, as you will not require immediate access, at the moment, and it prevents situations like the one we are talking about now.
The issue is accessibility, it does not matter if it is 'borrowed' by a child, or stolen by another adult, if a gun owner is found negligent in the proper safety and storage of his firearms, he should be held accountable. This is not to say that the other parties should not be charged, they are committing the crime, and should be prepared to do the time.
Basically what I am saying here is this:
LOCK UP YOUR GUNS
Edit: Thanks Bruce, I should really start making my posts shorter

I get ya.  Maybe I misunderstood the point of your posts.  If you're saying that the parents should be held responsible for failing to properly store their weapons, then I absolutely agree with that.  As long as you're not arguing that they should be responsible for the actions of their children regaurdless of wether or not the weapons were stored properly (something which has not been determined in this case).

 

[Scratch_043]

Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page about this now, Truce?

 

[Blackhorse7]

48th Highlander, I'm glad you cleared that up, and perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my post.  If the parents took all reasonable steps to secure the firearms, then no, it's not their fault.  But I know of quite a few people who think as long as the gun is locked, it's okay to have the bloody key sitting on the gun cabinet or safe.  In my eyes, unless you have take reasonable steps to prevent that safe or lock from being opened, it's no different than leaving the key to you're house in the door lock outside.  Nobody would do that, right?

 

[gunfan]

ToRN Posted:
"
but, by the law, the firearms must be stored such that the firearms can only be accessed by PAL licensed individuals (military personel exempt)

Also, teenagers are not fully 'accountable for their own actions' until the age of 18, I suggest you check your facts. Parents can still be held responsible until then."

ToRN, My facts are accurate. The firearms need to be stored as I described them so that they are not "easily accessible". There is still nothing in your post that indicated that these were easily accessible. The youth did obtain the firearms, it does not say how.

Teenagers are accountable for their own actions. The criminal code and the Youth Criminal Justice Act are part of holding them accountable. No matter what crimes they commit, they are responsible for them (to the extent that the above laws allow). There is no law in Canada that allows authorities to hold the actions of one person against another, thus parents cannot be charged for the actions of their children, as much as it would be nice to see.

The above are the facts. I have been a probation officer and child protection worker for the last 12 years. I have been a CFC instructor for the last three.  I suggest you think about what the facts really are before you start questioning them.

I do agree and state that individuals who own firearms are responsible for them 24/7. If someone is intent on obtaining your firearms, there is nothing that will prevent them from getting them, if they are given the right tools and enough time.