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Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

Geo,

100% agreement about people handling weapons while under the influence of anything.

As for my friend with the flask before roll-call, nobody in the regiment knew of this habit. We knew he lived at the mess after hours but he never missed roll-call or looked drunk.

Today on civy street, I still encounter this type of person, "permanent drunk". The only way to know if they are under the influence is through the Breathalyzer.

Its like the old saying" I never knew he drank, until I saw him sober one day"
 
geo said:
We don't need people with poor jugement to be in control of the C6, the 50 or something that can kill.... you!

Poor judgment is far more often innate than induced by some kind of substance.
 
When did someone arbitrarily decide that marijuana is not addictive?  Hope you had your Listerine enema before you started talking out of your ass. 
I deal with CM addicts all the time (I can't stand typing out marijuana--CM is Cannabis Marijuana).  I see kids that steal from their parents for pot money.  Break into houses, steal electronics from stores for their habits.  And it is pretty obvious that CM MAKES YOU DUMB!  Yes.  It does.  No really.  It does.  (see, the actual pot heads are arguing with the screen right now). 
THC stores itself in your soluble fat, therefore it lasts in your system much longer than alcohol.  As well, TCH has a cumulative effect that alcohol does not.  And where is the highest concentration of fat in your body?  The brain.  THC acts like an off switch for synapse firing.  It doesn't kill brain cells, just more like it puts them to sleep, and there is no way to wake them at present. 
Granted, people act like bigger jackasses on booze than weed, but a pot head that is strung out and needing a joint is one pissy, angry little creep and that lasts longer than a hangover does.  But that isn't the point.  CM is a harmful drug, and all the addicts that are in a frenzy to legalize it in order to get cheaper product are only harming this country.  Just because the legal system is getting soft on it, doesn't mean that is a good thing.  Guess what?  The legal system is soft on everything.  Maybe I'll take up killing people with my car.  The law doesn't seem to have much in the way of penalties for that, either.  :p
 
zipperhead_cop said:
Maybe I'll take up killing people with my car.  The law doesn't seem to have much in the way of penalties for that, either.   :p

Might as well have a couple of joints prior as well... ;)

MM
 
There is absolutely no physical addiction from the use of marijuana. Certain individuals might develop an artificial mental dependence, but that is an issue with themselves, not with the substance itself. People can develop mental dependency on just about any substance, not because it is addictive but because it is part of their genetic makeup. 

And it is pretty obvious that CM MAKES YOU DUMB

Obviously that is your personal opinion, not an observation based on scientific fact.

As well, TCH has a cumulative effect that alcohol does not.

……… show me someone who has died or suffered serious injury from “marijuana abuse”

Because there are tens of thousands of people each year that die from abuse of Alcohol…. And those people are not dieing from one massive binge drink, they are dieing from the cumulative effect of alcohol abuse.

THC acts like an off switch for synapse firing.  It doesn't kill brain cells, just more like it puts them to sleep, and there is no way to wake them at present.

Buddy, you kill brain cells doing just about anything. Use of marijuana has absolutely no negative long term effects. All those “hippies” that smoked pot though out university aren’t brain dead deadbeats… they are the upper class of society making the 6 figures.

but a pot head that is strung out and needing a joint is one pissy, angry little creep and that lasts longer than a hangover does.

Lol, where does this come from? Firstly, there is no “needing” a joint as it has already been established there is no physical dependency from marijuana. Secondly, you offer nothing but speculative conjecture… unless you can show us a scientific study that came to the same conclusion you have.

CM is a harmful drug

What harm has it caused?

 
FrenchAffair said:
Lol, where does this come from? Firstly, there is no “needing” a joint as it has already been established there is no physical dependency from marijuana. Secondly, you offer nothing but speculative conjecture… unless you can show us a scientific study that came to the same conclusion you have.

What harm has it caused?

You know, you ask for a scientific study, withought offering the same. You can't ask someone else to put up without doing so yourself.

Second, I know for a fact that ZC is an LEO that has seen the effects of drugs, drug use, the drug trade, and the harm that it has caused. That's offering a professional POV and opinion.

Where are you coming from?
 
FrenchAffair said:
What harm has it caused?

I'm not going to argue common sense with some junior pothead, armed with a stack of High Times magazines.  I simply don't care.  It is unlawful in Canada, and it is unlawful in the CF.  Pretty straight forward.

And hopefully, your drug addled head won't be wearing a CF head dress.  Ever. 
 
zipperhead_cop said:
I'm not going to argue common sense with some junior pothead, armed with a stack of High Times magazines.  I simply don't care.  It is unlawful in Canada, and it is unlawful in the CF.  Pretty straight forward.

And hopefully, your drug addled head won't be wearing a CF head dress.  Ever. 

Who said that I do or have ever done marijuana, let alone any drug. I know I have never said any such thing and I know you do not know me.

Don’t be presumptions, only makes you sound ignorant.

Common sense would see us ban plenty of substance that are currently legal far before marijuana, cigarettes and alcohol being chief among those.

I ask you what harm is causes as there has never been someone die from an overdose of marijuana, it causes no long term effects, hundreds of thousands of people are not using up resources from our Medical system because of systematic marijuana use though out their life….

If the harm is so evident and straightforward as you claim it should not be hard to type a few examples of this harm.

 
Guns, yes when you get in you get a little literature and thats it, but what did it say, you had to sign it, it said "any drug use and you will be kicked out of the military" It's a no tolerance policy. Thats all the literature you need!! unless you are a pothead and forgot what you signed yesterday!
french Affair what harm does it cause?! here's a few like zipperhead cop pointed out theft, usually from ones family which is pretty low, death, I knew a guy in highschool that got high and drove his car into a bridge rail and died, or how about this, cancer isin't that what bob marley died from, and he said he only smoked weed! Now yes you can argue that cigarettes and booze also cause more death , but it's not illegal!!! as long as you are over 18 or 19 in some provinces!!
I don't want anyone using any illegal drugs working with me, especially if it's my driver!!
 
French Affair.......its time for you to keep quiet, I HAVE SEEN MORE THAN A FEW HUMAN BEINGS WHOM DID THIER 2 YEARS LESS A DAY AND HAVING A JOINT WAS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THEY HAD PLANNED, OVER THAT TIME, TO DO UPON RELEASE.........................but hey, don't listen to me, I only see it every work day. En plus, I used to be one of those who thought that 'recreational' drug use was better than steady *alcohol use, but after 18 years of seeing the whole spectrum of addition and consequences, well, if I must vice, then pour me a drink!!

* not that there isn't serious consequences either, just my own comparison from my work*


...and on a MOD note this topic has only the length of my hockey tournament today to get back on the 'drug testing' topic or it gets locked down like all the others who get hijacked by someone who isn't even serving yet yet presumes to tell 'us' how it is/should be..
 
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/11/11/4648263-cp.html
Military starts using drug dogs to search troops' bags in Afghanistan

By Steve Rennie, THE CANADIAN PRESS
   
OTTAWA - Canadian military police have started using drug dogs to search troops' bags at Kandahar Air Field after being tipped about soldiers suspected of using heroin, hash and pot, say newly released documents.
Although there were no drug seizures reported, a briefing note says illegal drugs are readily available in Afghanistan and present a "temptation for Canadian troops in the form of personal use and in the form of importation for the purpose of trafficking."
The documents, obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act, indicate there were at least five targeted and random searches of soldiers' belongings in June and July at Kandahar Air Field.

The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, an independent military police unit, used dogs trained to sniff out drugs to search about 90 soldiers and more than 100 barrack boxes.
Military police took the names of soldiers in a convoy that was searched following a tip in July.

The briefing note says that search didn't produce enough evidence to justify charges, but military police were to check their records "for any other indication of illicit drug use/trafficking" among those in the convoy.
It's unclear why military police did the background checks because an e-mail outlining the incident was partly censored.

Defence Department spokeswoman Capt. Julie Roberge said she wouldn't comment on specific searches.
She said the military uses the dogs if it has a "reasonable doubt" there may be drugs at Kandahar Air Field or at one of the forward operating bases.
"As soon as there's a doubt ... of course there's going to be a follow up," Roberge said.

She said the dogs are a "NATO asset" shared among coalition forces. The Canadian military is field-testing its own drug-sniffing dogs in Canada with the intent of eventually using them in Afghanistan, she added.
Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre, who travelled to Afghanistan last month on an unofficial fact-finding trip, said he saw no evidence of drugs nor did he witness any dog searches.

The briefing note raised questions about whether the searches violated soldiers' Charter rights, particularly their expectation of privacy and the right to be secure against unreasonable searches.
But it concludes that targeted and random searches of convoys are an "effective and efficient method" of deterring troops from using or trafficking drugs without negatively affecting operations.

Word of the Kandahar searches follows charges laid last week against an Ottawa-based soldier for allegedly trafficking pot and hashish after an 11-month undercover sting operation by the military police unit.
Master Cpl. Steven Pearson was charged with five counts related to the alleged trafficking and possession of marijuana and hashish dating back to January 2006.

There have been several other high-profile incidents in recent years of alleged drug trafficking within the military.
Four crew members of HMCS Saskatoon were charged this year after a military police unit launched an undercover sting operation targeting the small coastal patrol ship in early 2006.

A court martial for one officer charged with trafficking cocaine and disgraceful behaviour under the National Defence Act has been adjourned until next year.
Two other crew members pleaded guilty and were given suspended sentences and fines, while the third was cleared of one charge and had a second one stayed.

Last year, five soldiers were charged at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown, N.B., under the National Defence Act with trafficking in cocaine, ecstasy and marijuana.


Yea, and those conditions surely don't exist back here in Canada.............. ::)
 
Perhaps someone in the CF can answer me this....  Does the CF utilize other forms of drug testing other then Urine tests? If no, Why not?

Urine drug testing has been around for a little while now, and people have figured out how to get past it, as many people have mentioned in this forum so far, there are many different products available online from fake urine to inhibiters, I have even seen a fake thingy with a bladder (saw it on MANswers).

Hair testing has been highly accurate as there really is no way to counteract it. As your hair grows the drugs become encased in the shaft. Problem is that it can only go back so far, 3 -6 months I believe, However this is ample timeframe to show THC opposed to Urine. Hair Alcohol testing allows for a much longer window of testing due to FAEE's and EtG's being absored into that hair as it grows. I know that this is a much more costly approach, but do you really want people being able to fake a drug test?

There are a few others such as Sweat Testing and Oral/Saliva testing, however from what I have read on it, it can only detect immediate recent use.

I was a teenager, I went through my 'lets try it' phase, But I also grew up, Many potheads say that it isnt a gateway drug, but it is.. I have seen many friends I grew up with, the same ones I was smoking a joint with when I was 16 end up on east hastings trynig to score coke or crack or whatever wonder drug is in right now. Either way, ZC is right when he said it is 'Unlawful in Canada and Unlawful in the CF', CM is a drug, and until it is proven otherwise it is illegal, for those that want to whine... get over it, your complaints are not going to get you anywhere. Personally reading Bruce's last post made me smile, knowing that the CF is now cracking down on drug abusers, and looks like even drug trafficers within the CF, personally I would feel those to be the bad seeds that end up making the rest of the organization look bad. Hopefully they get hit with the full extent of the law, along with the inevitable boot from the CF.

Take a look at Vietnam (not trying to start a big discussion and take the topic off-topic again), Among many factors, Drug abuse I feel was a primary factor in the US's loss of that war. Personally if I join the CF, Last thing i want is some drugged out soldier watching my back.
 
JBoyd said:
Perhaps someone in the CF can answer me this....  Does the CF utilize other forms of drug testing other then Urine tests? If no, Why not?

Urine drug testing has been around for a little while now, and people have figured out how to get past it, as many people have mentioned in this forum so far, there are many different products available online from fake urine to inhibiters, I have even seen a fake thingy with a bladder (saw it on MANswers).

Hair testing has been highly accurate as there really is no way to counteract it. As your hair grows the drugs become encased in the shaft. Problem is that it can only go back so far, 3 -6 months I believe, However this is ample timeframe to show THC opposed to Urine. Hair Alcohol testing allows for a much longer window of testing due to FAEE's and EtG's being absored into that hair as it grows. I know that this is a much more costly approach, but do you really want people being able to fake a drug test?

The random nature of the testing, as well as the manner in which it's conducted, would make most of the means of faking it impractical.  Having been through three in the past 7 months, you don't know when it's happening, you show up for something, the RSM says into the classroom, and off you go.  While you know it's going to happen, you have no idea when or under what circumstances.  From what I know of the various masking agents, they've got a limited duration of action, and carrying around a fake bladder 24/7 during all sorts of other duties is pretty impractical.  As to hair testing, when the urine test is as frequent as it has been, I don't think there's enough benefit to justify the cost.
 
Bottom line.....do drugs and you will get caught. It's only a matter of time.

There were a few just before the 2RCR BG left and they thought they were "in the clear".

They are now flipping burgers.

Regards
 
I find the biggest problem is the "no tolerance" policy.  IMHO, it doesn't exist.  We have people here who tested positive and are still serving, just not in Afghanistan.
 
I find it somewhat confusing when new recruits are informed of the " no tolerance" policy on drug use within the CF.

Then they hear that, " We(CF) have a longstanding practice of attempting to rehabilitate first-time users of soft-drugs."

 
Considering the amount of money that the CF can put into a person, a first time offence for a minor drug shouldn't be a kick out the door.

If there are other things that happen besides just rehab, like charges and marks on their records, it would be a deterant for atleast some of the people.

So long as ofcourse, the person wasn't using drugs while in a situation that could harm themselves or others.
 
PMedMoe said:
I find the biggest problem is the "no tolerance" policy.  IMHO, it doesn't exist.  We have people here who tested positive and are still serving, just not in Afghanistan.

People have always misinterpreted the term "zero tolerance".  All it means is that you do something and WE WILL do something.  No one in authority has ever stated that it will be "one strike and you are out".

The CF Drug policy is quite clear.  It places the individual on C&P and places conditions on you being able to stay in the CF... and that includes follow up drug testing.  If you are a regular drug user and you got caught.... you will slip up again and get caught again... at which point, it's bye, bye & sayonara!
 
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