Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

[jeremy1995]

Weed is not the magic plant, but it's not the devil plant. Decriminalise it will do nothing, the criminal organisations will still make a lot of money.  If it's legalize, the gouvernement will do a lot of money and it will be take off from the hands of our childrens and it will be good quality. Now, CF and weed. A member of the CF shouldn't smoke while being in uniform, smoke when he's on a mission, but only when he's home alone. Weed is like alchool, some will abuse it. Yeah there potheads, yeah there some people who will use cocaine after smoking weed for long time, but can we blame weed for it? Hell no. Those people are people who probably have problems in their lifes, people who are hanging out with bad people. The statistics show it, i think it's 3 or 4% of people who smoke weed that will finish to take cocaine. Some say that weed is bad because a lot of people smoke and drive, don't blame weed, blame those who are enought stupid to smoke and drive. Do we blame alchool for all those people who drink and drive?

Anyway, im just saying that it should be legal and it will probably will. But, a member of the CF has responsabilities, joints and uniforms are not good together, it's should be like alchool in my opinion. Sorry for my bad english, im a french who have a lot of progress to do! Please, fell free to debate about it with me, the more with debate, the more we learn!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Weed is not the magic plant, but it's not the devil plant. Decriminalise it will do nothing, the criminal organisations will still make a lot of money.  If it's legalize, the gouvernement will do a lot of money and it will be take off from the hands of our childrens and it will be good quality. Now, CF and weed. A member of the CF shouldn't smoke while being in uniform, smoke when he's on a mission, but only when he's home alone. Weed is like alchool, some will abuse it. Yeah there potheads, yeah there some people who will use cocaine after smoking weed for long time, but can we blame weed for it? Hell no. Those people are people who probably have problems in their lifes, people who are hanging out with bad people. The statistics show it, i think it's 3 or 4% of people who smoke weed that will finish to take cocaine. Some say that weed is bad because a lot of people smoke and drive, don't blame weed, blame those who are enought stupid to smoke and drive. Do we blame alchool for all those people who drink and drive?

Anyway, im just saying that it should be legal and it will probably will. But, a member of the CF has responsabilities, joints and uniforms are not good together, it's should be like alchool in my opinion. Sorry for my bad english, im a french who have a lot of progress to do! Please, fell free to debate about it with me, the more with debate, the more we learn!

Thanks for the unsolicited opinion from a 'potential, future officer.'

Perhaps before passing judgment on when a member of the CAF, should be allowed the use of marijuana, you should actually spend some time in the CAF. Your perspective will probably change.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Thanks for the unsolicited opinion

WTF?  Opinions can only be posted here if you ask for them?

 

[PuckChaser]

WTF?  Opinions can only be posted here if you ask for them?

According to some, yes.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Drunk posting. Give me a break :

 

[Fishbone Jones]

According to some, yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by that remark. Was it personal or all inclusive? Mind explaining yourself?

 

[McG]

..., yeah there some people who will use cocaine after smoking weed for long time, but can we blame weed for it? Hell no. ... The statistics show ...

that there is the link you deny:

Marijuana use by teens linked with problems in young adulthood
Prevention or delay of cannabis use likely to have health and social benefits, researchers say
09 Sep 2014

Frequent pot use by teens is linked to a greater likelihood of incomplete education, suicide attempts and other harmful effects, say researchers in Australia and New Zealand, who suggest their findings should be considered as countries move to decriminalize or legalize cannabis.

Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug worldwide, and statistics suggest that adolescents in some countries are starting to use it at a younger age and more heavily.

In 2013, about 23 per cent of students surveyed in Ontario said they’d used cannabis at least once in the previous year, according to an annual report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health.

The prevalence of past-year cannabis use among Canadians aged 15 years and older was 10 per cent in 2012, the Canadian Alcohol and Drug Use Monitoring Survey suggested.

Cannabis use is more common among those with low educational attainment, but there’s a debate about whether marijuana use is a marker or a cause. A study published in the journal The Lancet Psychiatry helps to answer some questions.

Researchers analyzed data on up to 3,765 participants who used marijuana from three long-running studies in Australia and New Zealand. The studies compared those who had never used pot with those who had and their developmental outcomes, which were assessed for the participants up to 30 years of age.

"Study findings suggest that adolescent cannabis use is linked to difficulties in successfully completing the tasks that mark the transition to adulthood," study author Richard Mattick, a professor of drug and alcohol studies at the University of New South Wales and his co-authors concluded.

"Prevention or delay of cannabis use in adolescence is likely to have broad health and social benefits."

The findings are relevant given the move in some countries to decriminalize or legalize cannabis, which raises the possibility that the drug might become more accessible to young people, the researchers said.

In the study, those who used marijuana daily before age 17 were less likely to complete high school or earn a degree compared with those who’d never used it.

Cannabis use was associated with increased risk of suicide attempts and later cannabis dependence and use of other illicit drugs, said Merete Nordentoft, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Copenhagen, in a journal commentary published with the study.

Nordentoft said the "convincing results" are valuable and appropriate given several U.S. states and countries in Latin America and Europe have decriminalized or legalized cannabis and allow unrestricted marketing of the drug.

Increasing evidence shows that brain development during adolescence can be harmed by frequent cannabis use and cognitive functions can be permanently reduced, she said.

Young people need to develop and mature and prepare themselves to meet demands in adult life.

"Cannabis use, especially frequent use, impairs this development and reduces the likelihood that a young person will be able to establish a satisfactory adult life," Nordentoft concluded.

The researchers acknowledged that the measurements were based on self-reported data, which could lead to over-reporting or under-reporting of cannabis use. They said rates of cannabis use by young people in their study are similar to those in Canada, the U.S. and the U.K., but the social and legislative context of cannabis varies between regions.

The study was funded by the Australian Government National Health and Medical Research Council.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/marijuana-use-by-teens-linked-with-problems-in-young-adulthood-1.2761059

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Weed is not the magic plant, but it's not the devil plant. Decriminalise it will do nothing, the criminal organisations will still make a lot of money.  If it's legalize, the gouvernement will do a lot of money and it will be take off from the hands of our childrens and it will be good quality. Now, CF and weed. A member of the CF shouldn't smoke while being in uniform, smoke when he's on a mission, but only when he's home alone. Weed is like alchool, some will abuse it. Yeah there potheads, yeah there some people who will use cocaine after smoking weed for long time, but can we blame weed for it? Hell no. Those people are people who probably have problems in their lifes, people who are hanging out with bad people. The statistics show it, i think it's 3 or 4% of people who smoke weed that will finish to take cocaine. Some say that weed is bad because a lot of people smoke and drive, don't blame weed, blame those who are enought stupid to smoke and drive. Do we blame alchool for all those people who drink and drive?

Anyway, im just saying that it should be legal and it will probably will. But, a member of the CF has responsabilities, joints and uniforms are not good together, it's should be like alchool in my opinion. Sorry for my bad english, im a french who have a lot of progress to do! Please, fell free to debate about it with me, the more with debate, the more we learn!

Jeremy I will bite your question.  Presently, marijuana is an illegal drug and as such CF members shouldn't use it as doing so would not only break the law but would also be a direct contravention of our military values and ethics which you can read about at the following link

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/code-of-values-and-ethics.page

I tend to agree with the premise of your argument though that the government should legalize it, mostly because I view prohibition as a complete failure and would rather the government spend the money on improving social programs. 

I don't believe for a second that Marijuana is healthy for you but neither is a lot of other stuff we do or use in our everyday lives.  Money would be better spent on educating people about drugs and on social programs, at the end of the day I believe the average citizen should have the right to choose whether they indulge in marijuana and it's no better or worse than alcohol or cigarettes.  Besides, when do you ever hear about a guy who smoked a joint beating his wife or assaulting someone downtown?  The same can't be said for someone who has consumed too much alcohol.

I've actually never really understood the history behind the stigmatization and prohibition of marijuana, it may be something interesting to read up on.

For the record, I don't smoke marijuana as that would be in direct contravention of the Code of Service Discipline and also incredibly unethical.  It would be completely wrong for me as an officer to do this than turn around and tell my soldiers they can't and potentially have to discipline them for doing so.  Anyone who does this sort of thing is a snake and should resign their commission immediately.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Besides, when do you ever hear about a guy who smoked a joint beating his wife or assaulting someone downtown?  The same can't be said for someone who has consumed too much alcohol.

In my job, all the time.

When was the last time a soldier in your unit used "I just didn't notice the time from all the cocaine I was freebasing" as a defense in an AWOL charge?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

In my job, all the time.

When was the last time a soldier in your unit used "I just didn't notice the time from all the cocaine I was freebasing" as a defense in an AWOL charge?

Which is why I am glad we have people like you Bruce that are willing to put up with that crap as I would never want to do your job.  Dealing with whacked out jerks all day must grow pretty tiring?

As for AWOL defense, never seen too much of that with relation to drugs but have seen it with alcohol.  Guys who get busted for drugs in the army usually get taken down pretty hard and really have no leg to stand on.  The last drug charges I witnessed, the guy got sent to club fed for almost a month but came back a far individual than when he left.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You just explained why you [almost] never hear someone say 'I smoked a bag of weed and then I.............."

Unless you have nothing to lose of course you're going to say "Well, after I drank 15 beers........"
I get them already convicted, and of course 'wanting treatment', so telling me what really sets them off doesn't hurt them in court.

Trust me my friend, where I work right now is freakin' Disneyland compared to 'regular' jails.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Drunk posting. Give me a break :

Hmm - drunk at 1800, and making value judgements on weed.  Quite ironic.

Sometimes it is okay to admit that you are wrong and apologise, without the eye-rolling.

 

[ballz]

The thing I find funny about those are so vehemently against the use of marijuana is that most of them drink recreationally, but somehow believe that marijuana can't be used recreationally.

A good example provided by George Wallace here http://army.ca/forums/threads/116407/post-1328751.html#msg1328751 when he asks:

Would you trust anyone who is on drugs, any drugs, to handle a loaded gun in your presence? 

Would you lay your life on the line for a leader who was high on drugs?

Derp. Obviously it's a chargeable offence to show up to work drunk, it would obviously be a chargeable offence to show up to work high.

Alcohol ranked most harmful drug
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/alcohol-ranked-most-harmful-drug-1.919186

Alcohol is more dangerous than illegal drugs like heroin and crack cocaine, according to a new study.

British experts evaluated substances including alcohol, cocaine, heroin, ecstasy and marijuana, ranking them based on how destructive they are to the individual who takes them and to society as a whole.

Researchers analyzed how addictive a drug is and how it harms the human body, in addition to other criteria like environmental damage caused by the drug, its role in breaking up families and its economic costs, such as health care, social services and prison.

Heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine, or crystal meth, were the most harmful to individuals. When considering their wider social effects, alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine were the worst.

P.O.V.:

What should be done to tackle alcohol abuse?
Overall, alcohol outranked all other substances, followed by heroin and crack cocaine. Marijuana, ecstasy and LSD scored far lower.

The study was published online Monday in the medical journal, Lancet.

Experts said alcohol scored so high because it is so widely used and has devastating consequences not only for drinkers but for those around them.

"Just think about what happens [with alcohol] at every football game," said Wim van den Brink, a professor of psychiatry and addiction at the University of Amsterdam. He was not linked to the study and co-wrote a commentary in the Lancet.

When drunk in excess, alcohol damages nearly all organ systems. It is also connected to higher death rates and is involved in a greater percentage of crime than most other drugs, including heroin.

Experts, however, said it would be impractical and incorrect to outlaw alcohol.

Target problem drinkers

"We cannot return to the days of prohibition," said Leslie King, an adviser to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and one of the study's authors. "Alcohol is too embedded in our culture, and it won't go away."

King said countries should target problem drinkers, not the vast majority of people who indulge in a drink or two. He said governments should consider more education programs and raising the price of alcohol so it isn't as widely available.

Experts said the study should prompt countries to reconsider how they classify drugs. For example, last year in Britain, the government increased its penalties for the possession of marijuana. One of its senior advisers, David Nutt — the lead author on the Lancet study — was fired after he criticized the British decision.

"What governments decide is illegal is not always based on science," said van den Brink. He said considerations about revenue and taxation, like those garnered from the alcohol and tobacco industries, may influence decisions about which substances to regulate or outlaw.

"Drugs that are legal cause at least as much damage, if not more, than drugs that are illicit," he said.

In Canada, the federal government is considering random breathalyzer tests, a policy Australia is using.

Jacking up prices is another option Canadian researchers will discuss in a forum next month.

"Pricing has an enormous impact on consumption levels, and taxation levels, of course, influence pricing and therefore influence consumption," said Robert Mann of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.

The study was paid for by Britain's Centre for Crime and Justice Studies.

When you actually sit back and look at how many of our troops have dramatically decreased their quality of life, if not ruined it altogether, because of their inability to control their alcohol, it really should be no surprise.

Hmm - drunk at 1800, and making value judgements on weed.  Quite ironic.

Another good example of the morally/ethically superior alcohol-user thought process. :nod:

 

[ballz]

For the record, I don't smoke marijuana as that would be in direct contravention of the Code of Service Discipline and also incredibly unethical.  It would be completely wrong for me as an officer to do this than turn around and tell my soldiers they can't and potentially have to discipline them for doing so.  Anyone who does this sort of thing is a snake and should resign their commission immediately.

Unfortunately, if you even suggest that marijuana use can be compatible with society, some old dinosaurs inevitably just write your off as a pothead. Pot-use not required.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I do not have a problem with pot use, per se (leaving aside the current status of the substance in the Criminal code).

My concerns about legalizing pot are more practical:

1) can we devise a road side sobriety test (like the breathalyzer) that can reliably detect those who have consumed too much pot to safely operate a motor vehicle?

2) my second concern relates to the first: what do we about people who work in safety sensitive places?  My understanding has always been that unlike alcohol (which is pretty much completely metabolized after 24 hrs), THC is stored in body fat and will flood back out into the blood stream up to 30 days later, particularly under times of stress.  If this is true, as a practical matter, how does the CF approach the use of pot if it becomes a legal substance?  I could still see us administratively banning its use for soldiers, sailors and airmen, just for safety reasons.

Thoughts?

 

[ballz]

1) can we devise a road side sobriety test (like the breathalyzer) that can reliably detect those who have consumed too much pot to safely operate a motor vehicle?

I ponder the same thing. Something that certainly needs to be worked out.

2) my second concern relates to the first: what do we about people who work in safety sensitive places?  My understanding has always been that unlike alcohol (which is pretty much completely metabolized after 24 hrs), THC is stored in body fat and will flood back out into the blood stream up to 30 days later, particularly under times of stress.  If this is true, as a practical matter, how does the CF approach the use of pot if it becomes a legal substance?  I could still see us administratively banning its use for soldiers, sailors and airmen, just for safety reasons.

If you smoke a joint, THC does get stored in fat. It does not, however, "flood back into the bloodstream up to 30 days later" causing you to suddenly be stoned again even though you haven't smoked a joint in 29 days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misconceptions_about_drugs#.22Flashbacks.22_due_to_release_from_fat_cells
I don't see it being "administratively banned." I see something similar to how alcohol is handled. No smoking a joint 12 hours prior to a shift, etc.

What I would be more interested to know, personally, is if long-term recreational use will eventually have detrimental cognitive effects on the user an to what extent? So far, the scientific community seems to be leaning more towards "inconclusive" on this part. It's important to consider, but alcohol also has detrimental effects on cognition and health, and we accept this.

 

[George Wallace]

1) can we devise a road side sobriety test (like the breathalyzer) that can reliably detect those who have consumed too much pot to safely operate a motor vehicle?

Yes.  Tests have been developed.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1PRFC_enCA563CA563&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=testing%20for%20thc%20while%20driving

2) my second concern relates to the first: what do we about people who work in safety sensitive places?  My understanding has always been that unlike alcohol (which is pretty much completely metabolized after 24 hrs), THC is stored in body fat and will flood back out into the blood stream up to 30 days later, particularly under times of stress.  If this is true, as a practical matter, how does the CF approach the use of pot if it becomes a legal substance?  I could still see us administratively banning its use for soldiers, sailors and airmen, just for safety reasons.

Any drug that can be stored for long periods of time in the body tissues, and cause "Flashbacks" should be prohibited.  Drugs like LSD, etc. would therefore be threats to safety at critical times in military, policing, firefighting and any EMC situation where stress levels may be at their highest.  Clear minds are required in times of stress.  Someone in an alternate reality is a liability. 

Your point on alcohol is well taken.  Has anyone ever had a "Flashback" from alcohol?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ballz,

I hear what you are saying, but am going to have to take a Flight Surgeon's opinion about THC over Wikipedia- at least for now.

What I do agree that much more research into the long term effects of THC does need to occur, in order to inform policy makers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I too don't have any issue with consumption of pot, other than the fact that it is currently illegal.  At the end of the day, I like to relax with a scotch and a book.  Others (including my son) relax with some pot and a book.  Beyond the legal aspects, I don't see much of a difference between the two - and there is certainly no moral (vice legal) high ground to be found in that landscape. 

The CAF approach to the issue should pot be legalised will be interesting to watch unfold.  I think it unlikely that we will immediately embrace unconstrained use - like as not we would see administrative restriction on use while we watch the rest of society come to terms with it and develop its own best practices.

I

 

[GAP]

Having seen it in widespread use in a combat zone, I would not recommend it.

I lowers the awareness of your surroundings, creates lassitude when awareness it is most needed.

what you do at home I couldn't care less, but not in the field/work..... :2c: