Dundurn - Restricted Airspace

[rdschultz]

Ok, I guess yesterday my Dad decided to fly over Dundurn again.  He's a hot air balloon pilot in Saskatoon, so sometimes the winds happen to point south.  Fun stuff.  This sort of thing really makes the MP's happy.

Now, as far as I'm aware, the airspace over Dundurn is Class F Restricted with that CYR designator thing.  I believe the information in the Canada Flight Supplement (I don't have one handy to check though) says that this airspace is in effect up to 3000 feet.  So basically, my understanding is that you're allowed to fly over the area, but you must be at least 3000 feet above the ground.  This is what he tells me at least.  My brother, who is doing his training for his commercial pilots license (he has his private pilots license) also reiterates these sentiments.  Unless there's a gross misunderstanding of the CFS, I assume they are correct.

I guess what he did was try to land before reaching Dundurn.  He's flown over there before, and he knows of their "rules", so he rather not upset them.  Unfortunately the field he was over he wasn't able to land in, for some reason or another.  Whether it was a farmers crop, or fenced or whatever, I'm not sure.

Anyways, he went up to 3200 feet before getting to the airspace, and passed over.  Then he found a field with a farmhouse, landed, and had the MP's there shortly thereafter to greet him.  They told him he was under investigation now, and that they had to confiscate the film in all the passengers cameras. They informed him that the airspace was restricted 'right up to the atmosphere', and that they had called the RCMP.  I guess the RCMP showed up, and threatened to confiscate his equipment.  They went on to tell him that he wasn't allowed to fly over Dundurn any more, and if he did, they take his equipment.

Now that I've given the backstory, I'm curious about a few things.  First off, are there any pilots (either military or civilian) who have a CFS handy and can look up the airspace details?  Is it 3000?  They've gone over it to reassure themselves, but I'm not in Saskatoon, and can't look at the book to give my judgement.  I trust that they're correct, but it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.

Second, and this is only if they are correct, shouldn't the MP's for a location know the rules for an area they are supposed to be protecting?  Something like this has happened before (only that  he didn't even enter the restricted airspace or the area above it, he landed in a fringe area owned by DND, and they wrongly thought he was in the restricted airspace because it was their property).  I know its not a high priority thing (the balloon isn't really causing any real problems, its accidental violations), but if they have the time to question him, they should have the time to determine the rules regarding the airspace.  Also, I don't think anybody has a concern about confiscated film, but does anybody know the rules regarding this?  I suspect that photos of a military installation aren't freely allowed, and I suspect they had every right to confiscate them, but I'm curious about this rule. 

Lastly, I'm curious about the involvement of the RCMP.  Now, I'm assuming the RCMP have powers to confiscate aircraft equipment if they suspect they've been used in the commision of a crime, but I wonder how that works.  If, as my father believes, he did nothing wrong, are they allowed to confiscate the equipment for any amount of time they want, or how does confiscation in general of any item work with the RCMP?  Are they liable for any damages incurred if it is found that they confiscated the eqiupment with no good reason (say, any damages to the aircraft, or loss of passenger revenue)? Finally if the RCMP is expected to enforce Transport Canada rules and regulations, would it not be in their best interests to know what those rules and regulations are.  Maybe I'm being too harsh on this point, as I'm sure infringement of restricted airspace is not something they deal with on a regular basis, but you can understand the frustration of my father when he is being accused of doing something wrong, when he followed the rules. 

Anyways, I don't know if anybody actually will read this, but if anybody has any unique insight I have not considered I wouldn't mind hearing it. I know we have MP's, pilots, criminology majors, and other folks who could possibly provide a different perspective.

 

[Dragoonian]

ack.. submit key hit by accident :

 

[Inch]

The airspace will also be marked on the VNC (VFR navigation chart) with altitudes and boundaries. The CFS will tell you who controls it. Sometimes there's also active times marked on the map as well as in the CFS. Here is the entry from the Designated Airspace handbook:
http://ats.nrcan.gc.ca/Pdf/DAH_5aug04.pdf

CYR301 CAMP DUNDURN, SK
The airspace within the area bounded by a line beginning at:
N51 °45'30.00" W106 °43'30.00" to
N51 °45'30.00" W106 °31'20.00" to
N51 °54'30.00" W106 °31'20.00" to
N51 °54'30.00" W106 °43'30.00" to
N51 °45'30.00" ¸ W106 °43'30.00" point of beginning
Designated Altitude - North of latitude N51 °51' Surface to 2700Â'
Time of Designation - Cont daylight Ocsl night by NOTAM
Designated Altitude - South of latitude N51 °51' Surface to 3000Â'
Time of Designation - Cont daylight Ocsl night by NOTAM
Designated Altitude - Above 3000Â' to FL 280
Time of Designation - Ocsl by NOTAM
User Agency - 17 Wing Operations, Winnipeg (204) 833-2700, (CSN) 257-2700
Controlling Agency - Winnipeg ACC (204) 983-8338
Operating Procedures - No person shall operate an aircraft within the area described unless the
flight has been authorized by the User/Controlling agency.

So by what this says, the area is always active from the surface to 3000' (or 2700' depending on where you are), and ocasionally by NOTAM the area is active from 3000' to FL 280 (or 28,000').

If your father didn't check the NOTAMs prior to his flight, I'm not saying he didn't but it's a pretty common thing for civvie pilots to not check them, he could very well have been in restricted airspace. Now being a military pilot myself, the restricted airspace is nothing to be fooling around with, in Moose Jaw we used to do navigation in the Harvard at 240kts while the Hawks did their nav at 420kts, that's right, 7 nautical miles a min.  If some bug smasher or in this case a balloon were to get in the way, it could lead to a big catastrophe.

The RCMP would be involved since Transport Canada or the military don't have specific police for airspace violations, it's the RCMP that take care of that side of things. So no, they're not going to know a whole lot of details on the airspace since they're dispatched by the controlling agency, in this case Winnipeg ACC.

I don't know about the confiscation stuff, but maybe they were trying to scare him. You could always call Winnipeg ACC at the number above to find out more.

Cheers

 

[Dragoonian]

Greetings Hoser,

   I think I can answer most of your questions seeing as I work in Dundurn as Range Control and we have been directly involved in all the situations your Father has been involved with. With respect to CYR 301 which is Dundurn Air space you are correct it is indeed 3000 ft ASL. The probelm your father ran into the first two times was (1st incident) He landed in a secure compound which caused an instant breach of security, I cannot explain any further than that. (2nd incident) He landed in the training area itself which according to our policies also constitutes a breach of security as anyone entering and wishing to land an air craft of any sort must receive expressed written permission through the Detachment CO and a flight plan registered with a Local Airport, so to say that he was in a fringe of the area is incorrect as any land encompassing CFB Det Dundurn falls under CYR 301 which has a roof of 3000 ft ASL regardless of where it may be. Finally last nights events although your father did Fly above 3000 ft he did cross over a No Fly Zone which happened to be the same area he first landed in when he had his first experience with our Military Police. That area in itself  is a sensitive area and thus restricted to a No Fly Zone. If he has any further concerns I would have him perhaps notify the Military Police or the Detachment Commander and provide a flight plan prior to flying within CYR-301, that way we could brief him on areas he would be permitted to fly around and in the event of emergency we would have a record of the flight plan in the event we would need to conduct a search if something went wrong.  As far as the RCMP are concerned I would recommend you discuss those points with them, as far as the Military side of things goes if the Military Police requested RCMP assistance they would have briefed them on the above points and the RCMP would have then made the call. It is important to point out though that if the passengers were photographing any part of the base which could be deemed as sensitive then there is a requirement to protect that information and (if any) items seized such as film say would likely be developed searched and the developed photos that were not deemed as sensitive to national security returned to the owner. I would like to point out one more point to clarify the 3000ft ASL. Many times especially lately troops conduct live ranges which can face any direction, also we at times permit hunting in the area,the air space above Dundurn (CYR 301) is protected for DND use and control and is so not just to ensure safe flying by user units and security but also to protect anyone from veering into a live range. I hope this helped.

 

[rdschultz]

Hey, thanks, that clears things up a bit.  Also, just so we're clear, this post was out of my own curiousity, and I was not acting as an agent on his behalf, at all.  But thanks for clearing that up.  As well, he was going to go talk to the military police today sometime, and sort through the whole affair.  I just hope he shows up with a cool head.

As for the 1st incident, I understand your point.  I was there when it happened, so I know the particulars of the situation.  The short story is that the aircraft had to come down because it was not safe to fly it any more.  The unfortunate thing was his location.  Understandably it was a security breach, and that should be sorted out as all security breaches are.

The second incident I wasn't there for, so I've got only hearsay to go on. What happened was he was flying and approaching Dundurn, and tried to get down as soon as possible, remembering the first incident.  He saw what he assumed to be a suitable pasture and landed there.  What I can say for sure is that the spot where he landed was maked on his GPS, and those coordinates were checked and rechecked with a VNC after the flight, by several different pilots.  As far as anyone was able to determine, he wasn't flying in what was listed as restricted airspace at the time.  If all land encompassing CFB Det Dundurn falls under CYR 301, and that is not listed as restricted airspace on the VNC, then that would seem to be a problem to me.  The security breach I can understand (and I fully agree, it should be treated as a security breach in the same manner as any security breach), but the thing that concerned me was that he was told this was an airspace violation.  I don't think even he was concerned about being questioned by the MP's, he expected and accepted that, but I know he disagreed with the viewpoint of them that he had violated their airspace.

As for your points about last night, thanks for pointing that out.  I can understand the concern about the no-fly zone, and I was not aware of that fact.  His take on the matter was that he attempted to do everything right, and still had issues.  I've only spoken with him on the telephone about the incident, so it was informative and helpful to see the other side of the story.  Perhaps I will be able to relay your points to him.  Just out of curiousity, is that no-fly zone permanently a no-fly zone, are there NOTAMS issued to that effect, or what?  I don't believe he was aware of the no-fly zone, and he should have been aware of that, as far as I'm concerned.

As for flight plans, I'm not sure of how they work in general, and specifically with regards to Balloons.  Do they not need particulars of where you take off from, and where you land?    I can say for certain that he doesn't ever plan to fly over Dundurn, and he does make every effort he can to avoid it.  As you're probably aware, a hot air balloon has very little control, and is very much at the mercy of the winds.  It nearly always takes off from Kinsmen Park in Saskatoon, so any flights over Dundurn have been purely at random.   

Anyways, thanks for providing the other side of the story.  I appreciate any more comments you may be able to provide.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Isn't this a great forum?
Bruce

 

[Dragoonian]

Hi again Hoser,

     In reference to your latest post I would have to say I am unfortunately unable to recommend any venues for a flight plan as I am unaware on how they do fly. I respect the fact that they are at the mercy of wind currents but that is about all I know. I would recommend discussing it with the Saskatoon airport and getting their take on it as well as notifying the base of his intent and the likeliness and/or possibility of flying within CYR301 as well as seeking permission to enter if he does. Normally when anyone has permission to enter CYR301 they would initiate communications with us via radio prior to entering so that we could brief them on potential Danger Areas such as live ranges. I cannot confirm wether or not a call via Cell phone to let us know that he has drifted into CYR301 would suffice, that would have to be discussed with the Detachment Commander or our Operations Officer. I can say that it would be better to try and lay out the plan with all authorities involved that way if he were to float into our air space we would be aware of his flight and can take precautions to ensure he and his guests have a safe flight over Dundurn without comprimising security. Secondlty in reference to the No Fly Zones these are permanent No Fly Zones and are not registered daily on NOTAM's. If you have any further questions please send me a PM and I would be glad to exchange e-mail address.

 

[rdschultz]

Hmm, yeah.  I'm sure he knows the details about flight plans and how they work, just I don't.  I'll do a little research for my own puposes after I finish typing this. 

He does carry an aircraft radio with him, so radio contact would be a logical solution.  I know in this latest incident (and the one before it), he didn't believe he was causing any airspace violations, so asking for permission to enter the airspace wasn't a concern at the time.  Obviously there are some details to be worked out.  But it should all get sorted out soon enough. 

As for the possibility of entering the airspace, that gets very difficult to determine.  For instance, on the night of that flight, winds were forcasted at the time of launch as 230 @ 4 Knots.  Taking off from Kinsmen Park with those conditions, his estimated direction would've been down the Floral highway (don't quote me on that, I'm in Northern Alberta right now, so I don't have a Saskatchewan map at my disposal... I could look one up on the internet, but its not important), and his estimated distance would've been 4 Nautical Miles (all of his flights are expected to last about an hour).  In other words, nowhere near Dundurn.  I guess sometime after launch the airport was saying the winds were 8 gusting to 15 Knots, at whatever direction (I don't recall, its been a while since I've talked to him in detail about the affair).  Obviously its impossible to predict, with any certainty, if he will be flying over Dundurn beforehand.  He could give you anywhere from a few to several minutes of notice once he determines that he will be heading that direction, as a best case scenario. 

And, to be perfectly honest, CFB Det. Dundurn is about 30km from Saskatoon, and the balloon does not launch in any winds greater than 10 Knots, which is less than 20 km/h.  The only way he's going to make it to Dundurn are due to unforseen circumstances, such as the wind picking up, shifting, or the inability to land somewhere (if he's approaching Dundurn, he has landed before the expected hour is up, as well).  Obviously it still happens, but very rarely. 

I really do appreciate your input.  I do have some specific questions to ask you about something related to the upcoming airshow, so I'd ask that you please check your PM's.  I've taken it upon myself to sort some details out, and I'm hoping you might be able to provide some information, or point me in the right direction.  Thanks.

 

[Garry]

I have never heard of a "no fly zone". The Designated Airspace Handbook (available on line through Transport Canada) is the only reference for aispace in Canada. If a Commander wants to ensure that no one fly's over a certain area, that area is designated in the DAH and then everyone knows. Temporary changes are disseminated via NOTAMs.

If the local area Comander has designated a "No-fly zone", I'm not sure it can apply outside of his own troops.

Cheers-Garry

 

[George Wallace]

Garry

I find that odd.  I lived on many types of bases, Radar, Air Bases, Army Bases, etc. and was always under the assumption that they were full time No Fly Zones, due to the sensitive nature of their facilities and also due to the Ranges being used for Live Fire.  I am sure that other areas are also considered as permanent No Fly Zones, such as Parliament Hill and the Provincial Legislative Assemblies.

GW

 

[Inch]

Areas designated CYR are for all intensive purposes, no-fly zones, we just don't call them no-fly zones officially.  The Snowbird training area is a CYR, even though we're military, we still couldn't fly in that area and neither could anyone for that matter.

Cheers

 

[commando_wolf63]

I take it your dad is an avid balloonist my suggestion is that he   drive up to P.A. or the Battlefords so he wouldnt risk flying over or near CFB Dundurn. There are Artillery units that practice out in CFB Dundurn has he thougt of the ramifications if he was accidently shot down during a live fire exercise esp with Civillian sightseers.

 

[rdschultz]

Unfortunately, that isn't a realistic option.  Paying passengers necessitate that Saskatoon is where the balloon is operated from, if it is to fly at all.  Neither Prince Albert nor the Battlefords have the population base to support a ballooning business.  Travelling to/from those locations is out of the question as well.  The passengers would not be up to travelling 2 hours, in addition to the normal 3 hours that the entire ballooning experience normally takes.  Also, the pilot spends much more time than this doing weather checks, and other tasks, and it would be extremely difficult to fit everything in without risking exhaustion. 

As for the possibility of an accident, I agree, that is something that must be considered.  However, I've got a few things to say about that.

All the additional research I've done indicates that according to Transport Canada regulations, CYR 301 is the only airspace designation in effect, and as such, the only specific rules governing flight over that area.  As Garry stated, if there is a "no-fly zone", it isn't published, and does not apply to civillian flight operatoins over 3000 ft ASL in that area. 

If the possibility of a balloon flying at 3200 ft is cause for concern, then it is the Canadian Forces duty to ensure that the details governing the airspace above CFB Det Dundurn are set accordingly.  If a rifle range were set up facing a highway, and the military got upset because people were driving on that highway, then they'd have to take the appropriate steps to ensure that nobody drove there.  If 3000 ft. ASL is not enough to ensure safe passage over CFB Det Dundurn, then I feel that CFB Det Dundurn is required to talk to Transport Canada (or whatever steps they do take) to ensure there is enough room for safe passage.  CFB Suffield has CYR 205 which is 'To Unlimited' for instance, and if that is what is needed, that is what should be done. 

I'm not trying to say that the pilot is able to pass the buck and assume no responsibility for the matter.  First and foremost in any aviation related industry is safety, and ultimately the pilot is responsible for the safety of the passengers.  I'm not going to go into detail on this point, because it goes without saying.  My main point is that it is also the responsibility of CFB Det Dundurn to inform the proper authorities of what they require. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

hoser, you are correct that there are height limits on the controlled airspace. But you also have to acknowledge that the range control staff, and the range users, have no means to positively determine a plane or balloon's height ..... "is that 2500 ft, or is that 3300 feet?" From their point of view, anything short of a commercial airliner at 30K feet is potentially in the base's controlled airspace and they must execute the response means that they have available to them.

They cannot afford to take a mindset that "it's ok, that's just hoser's dad's balloon, and he always stays above 3000." Because if they did, and then one time he has lift or nav problems and does intesect the vertical danger area of a range, you'll be the one suing the Department.

They are, after all, working towards preventing potentially fatal accidents.

 

[rdschultz]

That is very true, and that brings up an important point.  The fact that they did respond is a testament to the quality of a job they do, and the awareness they have of the area.  In my original, rather hasty post, I completely ignored that aspect. 

I believe the concern on the part of my father wasn't necessarily that there was a response, but the manner in which it occured.  Again, I'm not speaking for him, just giving an evaluation of what I heard.  To him, it seemed as though the MP's weren't completely aware of the rules, the RCMP wasn't aware at all, and both parties acted as though they were.