Facebook Keyboard warriors

[Privateer]

Maybe I missed it, but I see a bunch of anti ISIS stuff not anti Muslim stuff. Other than the tenuous tie of some people dressed in CADPAT I don't see what the big deal is. As these things go, the site is pretty tame. More about selling T-shirts than anything else.

In my cursory review of the timeline, looking only at items posted by the admins of the page itself (not at comments by others), I see a picture of artillery with the phrase, "Look its [sic.] Islam over there, frig you guys", and a picture with a caption, "Merry Xmas n frig u Islam".  That was just in scrolling through the December 2015 posts.

There is no way that the CAF should condone members of the CAF being associated with that site in so far as they are identifiable as members of the CAF.

Edit to add:  I see that Army.ca site changes "f*ck" to "frig" automatically.  It wasn't "frig" on the Facebook page in question.

 

[kratz]

I would argue that the OPs identity is wholly irrelevant. Is the conduct of CAF perssonel visible on that page acceptable, or not? If not, it should be acted upon. Whether the OP happens to be a member of a targeted religion/ethnicity/group is completely immaterial. Would we expect only women to speak up about sexual harassment, or visible minorities to address racism? Or are leaders at all levels expected to deal with apparent issues of soldier conduct that contravenes the standards we expect them to adhere to?

Where is that slow clap icon?  :subbies:

I also agree with reccguy, trial by social site is not normally appropriate, but these individuals have publicly put themselves in the public realm and invite feedback. Negative or not.

 

[mariomike]

My grandfather fought against the Germans in WWII and didn't like Germans until the day he died, in fact, he hated them. 

( I don't mean your grandfather personally ) but how did so many men express their feelings / opinions back then? ( If they did at all. ) In the pre-Facebook era, it was often in a bar. ( "What is said here, stays here." At least you hoped it would.    )

For better or worse, social media changed things. Now there is a permanent record that can be printed. ( Including present and potential employers if a guy ( or gal ) gets too far out of line. )

 

[Flavus101]

I did report it to their CoC in Meaford. The problems I see are using the title "infidels" which in my mind is deliberately infuriating and inflamming a sensitive topic among Canadians and two operations we are involved with (We have a muslim section of society and we work in coalition with muslims overseas). Also posing in uniforms and holding issued weapons on a web site with "Fook ISIS" kind of brings discredit to the CF and makes us look like a rag tag yahoo organization. I am not their boss, but I would not tolerate such nonsense from the troops in my company.

I was simply playing Devil's advocate. I am not agreeing with posting pictures of CAF members on that page, as I can see that things are too sensitive right now to go mucking about. Just be careful when branding a bunch of people who may not even know why they are being branded.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I did report it to their CoC in Meaford. The problems I see are using the title "infidels" which in my mind is deliberately infuriating and inflamming a sensitive topic among Canadians and two operations we are involved with (We have a muslim section of society and we work in coalition with muslims overseas). nd possibly Canada in general.

Sure they are using the term infidels.  By definition a Muslim is a follower of the religion of Islam.  There's quite a bit of hate speech in the Quran,  lots of killing this unbeliever and murdering that one.

If we're going to get bent out of shape for Canadians using a derogatory term on themselves (infidel)  that  Islam refers to us anyways what are we doing about everything else in that book? 

 

[ArmyRick]

Stop cherry picking. Seriously. There is blatantly offensive material on that web site. End story and CF soldiers should not be seen on their with uniforms and weapons on. For those of us who live in the real world, lets use common decency and respect

 

[CombatMacguyver]

Geez, we are a sensitive bunch in this country arent we...  I haven't checked this site out but it sounds pretty normal for teh internetz.

And just for the record, hating on a religion isn't "racist".  That term gets loosely applied way too easily.  It's ridiculous to such a point that I remember way back in highschool teachers seemed to think that even identifying someone's race (i.e. saying "James is African/Black" and "Bob is European/White") was some form of racism.

I weep for children's future sometimes...

 

[mariomike]

There is blatantly offensive material on that web site.

For reference, I read this Milnet.ca discussion from 2006,

Guidance on Blogs and other Internet Communications 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/50580.0

From this unofficial site,

JPSU - Policy on Improper Comments on Social Media 
http://canadianveteransadvocacy.com/Board2/index.php?topic=10121.0

"Companies routinely use the Internet as part of job interviews to see what has been posted by perspective employees or to find out what type of social media groups of which they are a part."

I weep for children's future sometimes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMGz3sXRhvE

 

[CanadianCamel]

Geez, we are a sensitive bunch in this country arent we...  I haven't checked this site out but it sounds pretty normal for teh internetz.

And just for the record, hating on a religion isn't "racist".  That term gets loosely applied way too easily.  It's ridiculous to such a point that I remember way back in highschool teachers seemed to think that even identifying someone's race (i.e. saying "James is African/Black" and "Bob is European/White") was some form of racism.

I weep for children's future sometimes...

Big difference between being a sensitive bunch and being part of a professional military where you're held to a higher standard. I honestly do not care what they say at home or to their buddies. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As long as they don't identify themselves as CAF members and bring us all down with them. Remember the 90's weren't that long ago and would hate to see public opinion of the Forces go back to that.

 

[Journeyman]

Geez, we are a sensitive bunch in this country arent we...

It's not necessarily sensitivity, but a belief in the quote from that documentary ( ) Kingsman: The Secret Service -- "Manners Maketh Man." 

Some of us believe ourselves above those FB posters, and have no desire to be tarred with the same 'you military Neanderthals are all the same' brush.

Saying our troops have 'seen terrible things while deployed' just doesn't cut it; these people have never deployed (still in training/generic DP1 Infantry cap badges). Even if these were more experienced troops, the impropriety of tarring an entire religion for the actions of the jihadists is just as indefensible as in the para above.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It's not necessarily sensitivity, but a belief in the quote from that documentary ( ) Kingsman: The Secret Service -- "Manners Maketh Man." 

Some of us believe ourselves above those FB posters, and have no desire to be tarred with the same 'you military Neanderthals are all the same' brush.

Saying our troops have 'seen terrible things while deployed' just doesn't cut it; these people have never deployed (still in training/generic DP1 Infantry cap badges). Even if these were more experienced troops, the impropriety of tarring an entire religion for the actions of the jihadists is just as indefensible as in the para above.

I agree, not condoning it, just providing an explanation.  The chaps in the mentioned photo are young and impressionable.

 

[McG]

And just for the record, hating on a religion isn't "racist".  That term gets loosely applied way too easily.  It's ridiculous to such a point that I remember way back in highschool teachers seemed to think that even identifying someone's race (i.e. saying "James is African/Black" and "Bob is European/White") was some form of racism.

You are right.  They are not racists, they are bigots.  That is no better.  In fact, it is equally bad.

 

[Scott]

Judging by some of the reaction I've seen, they're going to get a fine welcome when (if) they complete training.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Maybe I missed it, but I see a bunch of anti ISIS stuff not anti Muslim stuff. Other than the tenuous tie of some people dressed in CADPAT I don't see what the big deal is. As these things go, the site is pretty tame. More about selling T-shirts than anything else.

In the interest of full disclosure, perhaps the OP would like to say whether they are Muslim. It may help add context to the discussion.


I hate trial by social site. Especially, when people are reported to the authorities, even when they aren't breaking any laws. It's nice to know that with all the other stuff the MPs and NIS have to deal with in Meaford right now, they now have to chase down unsubstantiated rumours of racism.

Not saying I agree or disagree...I didn't actually waste any of my time on the site.  However...

19.14 - IMPROPER COMMENTS

(1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances).

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
a.if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members;


If anyone thinks saying stupid shit on the internet, contrary to things like the above QR & 0, can't get you charged, I know of at least 2 separate incidents where a mbr in my location was charged and found guilty under the CSD.  :2c:

 

[Occam]

I just took a look at the page in question, and find it appalling that serving members might be behind it.  It's not just anti-ISIS material, there's no shortage of anti-Islam material there as well.

I have a friend who's still serving, and he occasionally posts anti-Islam material on his Facebook page.  I've brought it up with him in a roundabout way, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it.  He's put me in a really crappy spot, because he is a friend and former co-worker, but on the other hand, I have no tolerance for branding an entire religion for the actions of a relative few. 

 

[mariomike]

I have no tolerance for branding an entire religion for the actions of a relative few.

An old training lecture ( not from the CAF ) I remember, "We cannot change your beliefs, but we can change your employment!” 

 

[The Bread Guy]

The chaps in the mentioned photo are young and impressionable.

If that's the case ...

Meaford is now aware of this shanigan, I suggest we let them handle this.

... then leadership may have a chance to make an "impression"  ;D

I spent 10 minutes (which I'll never get back) scanning the site.  While leaving the definition of "discredit" as per QR&O Vol. I 19.14 to greater legal minds than mine, IMHO, maybe 90% of it is typical, with me wondering if we're soldiers can't be better than this*, ~ 5% of it is pretty clear bigotry against Islam as a whole, and another ~5% on the borderline.

* - I also realize that a few idiots, especially a few vocal ones on the interwebs, doesn't mean the whole group is idiotic.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I just took a look at the page in question, and find it appalling that serving members might be behind it.  It's not just anti-ISIS material, there's no shortage of anti-Islam material there as well.

I have a friend who's still serving, and he occasionally posts anti-Islam material on his Facebook page.  I've brought it up with him in a roundabout way, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it.  He's put me in a really crappy spot, because he is a friend and former co-worker, but on the other hand, I have no tolerance for branding an entire religion for the actions of a relative few.

You won't like mine then, I married a Muslim and my opinion of that religion continues to sink further and further the more I learn about it.

 

[mariomike]

From the "Military and Facebook" discussion, 

Many employers also surf Facebook (and other social networking sites) for information and insight about potential employees.

Oakville resident Rob MacLeod had breezed through the early stages of the interview process and become a finalist for a police job when he was lobbed a question he hadn’t anticipated:
What is your Facebook password?
http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/03/20/would_you_reveal_your_facebook_password_for_a_job.html

 

[Jarnhamar]

You won't like mine then, I married a Muslim and my opinion of that religion continues to sink further and further the more I learn about it.

Most religions have a lot of blood and guts and violence at their core. Kill the unbelievers, burn the heretics, smash women with rocks in the head.  The majority of religions seem to have have moved on with the times and while some may spout off about that ancient bullshit they generally keep it to lip service. The problem with Islam is that the "few bad apples" still represent millions of followers who think chopping the heads of people is an appropriate punishment for insulting their religion. The religion hasn't grown up. In fact it seems to be regressing.

Obviously this page is going to bring all kinds of negative attention down on their heads. Even without the court of public opinion it's shitty PERSEC. We just shouldn't act surprised and beside ourselves with confusion that material like this is popping up.