Another option instead of new UCAVs is currently being researched by the AF. The Aurora's new upgrades include optics (not sure how sensitive this info is...any AVN Techs/Pilots have more detailed info?) that the puzzle palace has shown interest in using for Land Observation. I know it is not totally relevent to this thread but thought it was worth a mention instead of new UCAVs this can save us $$$ and I believe is much more likely. When you factor in $$$ and the Auroras high loiter time it seems ideal in theory.
Fighting the IED/RPG ambush threat
- Thread starter Cdn Blackshirt
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Loitering aircraft, UAVs or even baloons can only be part of the solution. The platform might catch an action, but it certainly can't signal intent. When you see a person littering the side of the road, is he just a slob, or is there a bomb concealed in the garbage. There is also the temporal aspect to consider. It is quite possible for the jihadis to emplace a device days or even weeks in advance (you just saw someone taking out the trash, or a road crew laying some new curbs), triggered by a person on the day of the attack using a cell phone or a garage door opener.
In the opposite direction, homicide bombers and vehicle borne IEDs are usually only detectable when they detonate. Even conventional attacks are hit and run, Jihadis pull to the side of the road, jump out and fire some rounds from a 60mm mortar then dive back into the car to do their escape (which includes going under bridges or inside parking garages to change vehicles where "we" can't see them.)
The short answer is extra layers of technology and surveillance might provide some help (although if the feed from the Aurora goes to the ASCC and not to me, it is of very little use), it isn't the magic bullet solution.
In the opposite direction, homicide bombers and vehicle borne IEDs are usually only detectable when they detonate. Even conventional attacks are hit and run, Jihadis pull to the side of the road, jump out and fire some rounds from a 60mm mortar then dive back into the car to do their escape (which includes going under bridges or inside parking garages to change vehicles where "we" can't see them.)
The short answer is extra layers of technology and surveillance might provide some help (although if the feed from the Aurora goes to the ASCC and not to me, it is of very little use), it isn't the magic bullet solution.
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A really good thread I must admit! Lots of interesting good and bad comments that no one can prove worthy until tested. UAV's are a possiblity however, there are not enough UAV's in the world to maintain eyes on all the time. There are simply too many routes and VP's (vulnerable points) out there. As for the 3km bubble that Kevin B relates to, again, there are way too many VP's and routes and not enough Sniper Dets.
As some one who was deployed on Roto 0 and had a hand in a few covert insertions, there are extremely difficult to pull off over there because the place is so damn populated. If we id'd a possible OP location, 99% of the time, it had already been used by the locals in the past. Not saying it was impossible, but it was very very difficult. Goats and sheppards everywhere!!!!!
I think the best thing we can do right now is to educate the troops on the ground, before, during and after the tour so that they know why and when to do the 5m and 20m check, what to look for, likely locations, etc. It is difficult to teach something that needs to be instinctive however we need to get agressive with our training. As we get better at recognizing the threat, we also have to remember that all the scumbags (terrorists) have there own intelligence network as well. They pass on int just like we do.
My two cents.
As some one who was deployed on Roto 0 and had a hand in a few covert insertions, there are extremely difficult to pull off over there because the place is so damn populated. If we id'd a possible OP location, 99% of the time, it had already been used by the locals in the past. Not saying it was impossible, but it was very very difficult. Goats and sheppards everywhere!!!!!
I think the best thing we can do right now is to educate the troops on the ground, before, during and after the tour so that they know why and when to do the 5m and 20m check, what to look for, likely locations, etc. It is difficult to teach something that needs to be instinctive however we need to get agressive with our training. As we get better at recognizing the threat, we also have to remember that all the scumbags (terrorists) have there own intelligence network as well. They pass on int just like we do.
My two cents.
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"I think the best thing we can do right now is to educate the troops on the ground, before, during and after the tour so that they know why and when to do the 5m and 20m check, what to look for, likely locations, etc. It is difficult to teach something that needs to be instinctive however we need to get agressive with our training. As we get better at recognizing the threat, we also have to remember that all the scumbags (terrorists) have there own intelligence network as well. They pass on int just like we do."
Excellent comment 2023.
They disguise IED's in many forms.
One they do in Iraq is form and paint a block or block's of Styrofoam to look like breeze block or block's and then fill it with what ever explosive they have or a arty round and just leave it on the side of the road and wait,they are initiated by cell phone,a garage door opener,a cheap walkie talkie we buy our kids to play with,timer etc. The breeze block is a common building material in Iraq.To us we would think of it as a piece of waste.
Don't get into a habit of taking the easy way in or out,keep your spacing while in a packet.Remember your old convoy drill's,they are more important to day than they ever were when taught for a Conventional War.They are watching us to find our weak link.
I just got back from some refresher training and we had a bit of a slide show of the tour that ended last Feb. and in the presentation was a excellent EOD report but turned out to be an IED,It came from one of the patrols,passed on,EOD team went out sure enough it was a Arty round between 105,155.The EOD team broke through the hard packed earth,now how much does it rain around KabuL?They cleared the earth away and found wires,the called the IED team in and they followed the wires out and sumised it had been in place for quite awhile but why had it not been used ?Was Bud's killed,captured?
This device was buried right along side of the road and could have inflicted quite a few casulties if it had been initiated.
Excellent comment 2023.
They disguise IED's in many forms.
One they do in Iraq is form and paint a block or block's of Styrofoam to look like breeze block or block's and then fill it with what ever explosive they have or a arty round and just leave it on the side of the road and wait,they are initiated by cell phone,a garage door opener,a cheap walkie talkie we buy our kids to play with,timer etc. The breeze block is a common building material in Iraq.To us we would think of it as a piece of waste.
Don't get into a habit of taking the easy way in or out,keep your spacing while in a packet.Remember your old convoy drill's,they are more important to day than they ever were when taught for a Conventional War.They are watching us to find our weak link.
I just got back from some refresher training and we had a bit of a slide show of the tour that ended last Feb. and in the presentation was a excellent EOD report but turned out to be an IED,It came from one of the patrols,passed on,EOD team went out sure enough it was a Arty round between 105,155.The EOD team broke through the hard packed earth,now how much does it rain around KabuL?They cleared the earth away and found wires,the called the IED team in and they followed the wires out and sumised it had been in place for quite awhile but why had it not been used ?Was Bud's killed,captured?
This device was buried right along side of the road and could have inflicted quite a few casulties if it had been initiated.
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2023 -- My comment specifically wrt sniper det was in refrence to route Irish in Iraq the MSR from BIAP to the IZ.
However as for cover insertion - if your hadji'd up in goat robe, massoud hat and sandals providing you got a beard and are dark haired you can blend pretty well. Driving as long as you dont drive like a DynCorp or ISAF twit your good to go - be an ass (thay all are) but dont be bumping and blocking thru intersections.
Spacing -- Dont - keep it varied. Its going to have to be a Monster VBIED to get more than 1 vehicle, but it is easy for them to sticky bomb or whatever a spaced convoy -- plus the way they drive here - you will get broken all up -- space it out outside the cities but not too to much.
WRT RPG's -- the lot we've seen are in horrid shape (worse than the AK's...) We where going to fire a few off tomorrow but decided to condem the lot as they are really really dodgey. In the Afghan theatre I woudl rate the RPG threat as low.
As I mentioend elsewhere -it seems like suicide bombing is back in vogue...
However as for cover insertion - if your hadji'd up in goat robe, massoud hat and sandals providing you got a beard and are dark haired you can blend pretty well. Driving as long as you dont drive like a DynCorp or ISAF twit your good to go - be an ass (thay all are) but dont be bumping and blocking thru intersections.
Spacing -- Dont - keep it varied. Its going to have to be a Monster VBIED to get more than 1 vehicle, but it is easy for them to sticky bomb or whatever a spaced convoy -- plus the way they drive here - you will get broken all up -- space it out outside the cities but not too to much.
WRT RPG's -- the lot we've seen are in horrid shape (worse than the AK's...) We where going to fire a few off tomorrow but decided to condem the lot as they are really really dodgey. In the Afghan theatre I woudl rate the RPG threat as low.
As I mentioend elsewhere -it seems like suicide bombing is back in vogue...
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A way to deal with RPG ambushes on important convoys is to place a pair of attack helo's on the convoy, and use their sensors to locate the ambush. Once you have located the ambush, and you need to get through, plaster the ambush with anti-personnel fire, and get the convoy through at top speed. The RPG gunners will have to keep their heads down as they are being plastered with cheap anti-personnel fire from both the convoy as it passes through and the helos, and that gets the convoy to safety as it is nearly impossible to fire under those conditions. I believe in the mid 1980's the US wanted to sell us some AH-1 Cobra's that were about to head to the desert to be parked as they were getting in the Apache. Wonder what came of that deal, especially since we never got attack helos.
It's a constant war of tactics when dealing with RPG teams. With the South Africans, everytime their APC's stopped to unload troops, they get shot at by RPG teams. The South Africans countered with driving around in widening circles and firing from one side with automatic fire to destroy the teams and then let off the troops. In Afghanistan, Soviet helicopters countered by clearing landing zones with anti-personnel saturation fire. They also began arriving with unpredictable numbers of wingmen (two or three), to upset Afghan force estimations and preparation. The Afghans countered by digging prepared firing positions with top cover. The Soviets countered this by using air-dropped fuel-air bombs to clear landing zones. The Afghans counter this by using U.S.-supplied Stinger missiles and prevailed.
It's a constant war of tactics when dealing with RPG teams. With the South Africans, everytime their APC's stopped to unload troops, they get shot at by RPG teams. The South Africans countered with driving around in widening circles and firing from one side with automatic fire to destroy the teams and then let off the troops. In Afghanistan, Soviet helicopters countered by clearing landing zones with anti-personnel saturation fire. They also began arriving with unpredictable numbers of wingmen (two or three), to upset Afghan force estimations and preparation. The Afghans countered by digging prepared firing positions with top cover. The Soviets countered this by using air-dropped fuel-air bombs to clear landing zones. The Afghans counter this by using U.S.-supplied Stinger missiles and prevailed.
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Dealing with an RPG or weapons ambush is a fairly straightforward exercise in kinetic effects....or is it?
If the Jihadis are in a crowded market place and begin firing RPGs and AK's at your convoy, do you light them up with an attack helo? What if they are dig into a school, hospital or Mosque? Can you level the firing position with artillery?
The Russians used these sorts of tactics in Chechnya, and disproportionate return firepower was also the response by French Union and American troops in Indo China. These tactics, while effective in the short term (i.e. the ambush is broken), also had long term negative effects, since the survivors were not inclined to look at these forces favorably. The fact this was precipitated by the Chechnyan rebels or "Popular forces" made little difference in the minds of the survivors.
The tools of low intesity conflict are needed to deal with ambushes and the insidious IED threat, getting good relations with the locals through CIMIC and the like, and developing actionable HUMINT are keys to detecting and avoiding/springing traps before you get too far in, and good SELECTIVE use of firepower when you run out of options limits the long term damage to your cause.
If the Jihadis are in a crowded market place and begin firing RPGs and AK's at your convoy, do you light them up with an attack helo? What if they are dig into a school, hospital or Mosque? Can you level the firing position with artillery?
The Russians used these sorts of tactics in Chechnya, and disproportionate return firepower was also the response by French Union and American troops in Indo China. These tactics, while effective in the short term (i.e. the ambush is broken), also had long term negative effects, since the survivors were not inclined to look at these forces favorably. The fact this was precipitated by the Chechnyan rebels or "Popular forces" made little difference in the minds of the survivors.
The tools of low intesity conflict are needed to deal with ambushes and the insidious IED threat, getting good relations with the locals through CIMIC and the like, and developing actionable HUMINT are keys to detecting and avoiding/springing traps before you get too far in, and good SELECTIVE use of firepower when you run out of options limits the long term damage to your cause.
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a_majoor said:
I am making the natural assumption that the convoy is travelling down a road near the middle of nowhere. The other way to deal with RPG or IED ambushes is to send infantry foward to secure the area. Clearing the area immediately around where the convoy is travelling through so that nobody goes near the path of the convoy as it passes is a way to prevent attacks on the convoy.
If the convoy is already under attack, well, the best thing to do is to put the pedal to the metal, and stick together. A moving target is harder to hit target, as RPG's aren't that accurate against a moving target at range. If your trapped, best thing is to fight back carefully, and hope that reinforcements arrive as soon as you can.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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The only thing that is a negative in this idea, is that Canada doesn't have enough Infantry in the whole CF to totally secure any Route that a Convoy would travel along, nor any of its' alternate Routes. The Americans are unable to do this with a Route only 15 or so Km long between the Airport and the City of Bagdad. All we can rely on is the 'Convoy Escort's' training and experience and the diligence of all involved with the Convoy and Escort.Armymatters said:
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Armymatters said:
Roads go from and to places, and it is difficult to imagine that you won't be passing through BUAs of various sizes along the way. This makes various techniques like "tunneling" difficult (but not impossible). Proper convoy techniques also help prevent/limit the damage. The main point I was trying to make is the best way to deal with the threat is to be proactive, get the people on board and they will be the eyes and ears of the convoy. After all, there may be @100 soldiers in a really big convoy, but there will be hundreds to thousands of pairs of eyes along the way. Best get them looking out for us.
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Over a beer tonight Duey, Mortar Guy, Westie47, Mike23A and I all came to that end state ;D
Given Westie, Mike and I live down IED alley here - we are getting an unfortunate experience with them...
The Mk1 Eyeball and the C1A1 BrainHousing are about the only manner -- adding in the Lucky Rabbits foot -- of effective IED/VBIED,DBIED BBIED etc detection and sheer dumb luck has saved more than 6 people I KNOW on this board...
Poor work by ISAF is IMHO one of the reason for the sucessful attacks in Kabul - because unlike Qandahar there is no large active insurgent populace. However ISAF prefers to remain bundled up in large AFV's and discoutn the HUMINT and relatiosn value of foot patrolling the routes.
Qandahar/Kandahar area is different due to the larger number of agrresive anti coalition forces.
Areas of Iraw vary as well from calmer than Kabul to worse than the wild west of Qandahar.
The same issue remains that you cannot indescriminately suppress an area in the beleive it may neutralise a potential bomber.
Given Westie, Mike and I live down IED alley here - we are getting an unfortunate experience with them...
The Mk1 Eyeball and the C1A1 BrainHousing are about the only manner -- adding in the Lucky Rabbits foot -- of effective IED/VBIED,DBIED BBIED etc detection and sheer dumb luck has saved more than 6 people I KNOW on this board...
Poor work by ISAF is IMHO one of the reason for the sucessful attacks in Kabul - because unlike Qandahar there is no large active insurgent populace. However ISAF prefers to remain bundled up in large AFV's and discoutn the HUMINT and relatiosn value of foot patrolling the routes.
Qandahar/Kandahar area is different due to the larger number of agrresive anti coalition forces.
Areas of Iraw vary as well from calmer than Kabul to worse than the wild west of Qandahar.
The same issue remains that you cannot indescriminately suppress an area in the beleive it may neutralise a potential bomber.
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Kevin
I agree with what are you saying.....if you go to www.Orgrish.com and look at the videos of IED attacks you will find that they all have numourous things in common. There are significant clues to the location visible in all of the videos. The untrained won't have a clue but the people who have had dealings with or know about them will see what I am talking about.
Be safe!
I agree with what are you saying.....if you go to www.Orgrish.com and look at the videos of IED attacks you will find that they all have numourous things in common. There are significant clues to the location visible in all of the videos. The untrained won't have a clue but the people who have had dealings with or know about them will see what I am talking about.
Be safe!
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2023 if its not an OPSEC things perhaps you could list them (signs) as a help to those going over there.
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CFL,
I would say that there is some OPSEC involved however like I mentioned earlier, the scumbags have there own INTEL Network so I wouldn't be surprised if this site is checked everynow and then. Use your grey matter, watch some of the video's and if you are still stumped send me a PM and I will let you know some of the indicators. Think like a scumbag, how do you want to take someone down with an IED?????
I would say that there is some OPSEC involved however like I mentioned earlier, the scumbags have there own INTEL Network so I wouldn't be surprised if this site is checked everynow and then. Use your grey matter, watch some of the video's and if you are still stumped send me a PM and I will let you know some of the indicators. Think like a scumbag, how do you want to take someone down with an IED?????
Armymatters, do some research...read as much as you can on this site and others about IEDs. You would be amazed how much literature is out there on the subject. It will help you from looking like a bit of a fool in a forum such as this. Just a tip for ya.
As far as another site, I am sure most of you are aware of it but www.globalsecurity.org is an excellent site. It is a thinktank for the Pentagon and is incredibly up to date. Also, just "goggle it" about IEDs. This is a less reliable way but if you sift through a lot of crap you can find good info this way as well.
CFL: For anyone going overseas you will get a wack of IED briefs and more when you get to your destination (I'm assuming KAF, right?) from our guys and we got an excellent American brief that was bang on and very informative. Your int guys will have a ton as well that they would be happy to share with ya. Or just ask your local friendly Sapper any questions you might have and they should atleast be able to point you in the right direction. Good luck over there and stay safe.
Hope this helps guys.
As far as another site, I am sure most of you are aware of it but www.globalsecurity.org is an excellent site. It is a thinktank for the Pentagon and is incredibly up to date. Also, just "goggle it" about IEDs. This is a less reliable way but if you sift through a lot of crap you can find good info this way as well.
CFL: For anyone going overseas you will get a wack of IED briefs and more when you get to your destination (I'm assuming KAF, right?) from our guys and we got an excellent American brief that was bang on and very informative. Your int guys will have a ton as well that they would be happy to share with ya. Or just ask your local friendly Sapper any questions you might have and they should atleast be able to point you in the right direction. Good luck over there and stay safe.
Hope this helps guys.
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