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:goodpost:
DBA....I stole that for my FB page.
DBA....I stole that for my FB page.
First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)
- Thread starter UberCree
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OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible.
In my mind tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief.
It's terrorism .
In my mind tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief.
It's terrorism .
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Jim Seggie said:
Ding! We have a winner. We'll never see the charges though. No one with enough balls to weather the left-wing media firestorm.
The law enforcement agencies tend to stand back and do nothing because their leaders don't want to make tough decisions because confrontation will bring out the media and, if anyone gets hurt (which there's always the potentila for that to happen), the fingerpointing, blame-laying and public inquiries will go on forever. There's also a lot of political pressure from the province and whatever municipalities are involved, to do nothing because no one is more squeamish about making tough decisions than politicians. So the strategy tends to default to hanging back and hoping the thing fizzles out. There's actually a good chance that it will. I'd give these protests another two weeks maybe. By then the media will be tired of covering small groups of people hanging around burning trash barrels in below zero weather. The politicians will have paid lip service and promised to study the mattter and everyone will go home. Alternatively, if the public starts to get fed up with the disruptions to their daily lives, you'll start to see a more aggressive approach by police to push the protesters to the sidelines. At that point they'll get bored and go home. It's pretty predictable with these kinds of things.
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ObedientiaZelum said:
A believe a few of the "Toronto 18" were Canadian citizens and were charged with terrorism-related offenses.
Baloo
Full Member
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Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any form of Native protest in this issue.
That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being inconvenienced. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
Let's not start comparing anything that has happened so far with the 'Toronto 18' or incidents of ecology-related arson.
Now, whether or not they should be allowed to do so, without consequence, is another matter entirely.
That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being inconvenienced. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
Let's not start comparing anything that has happened so far with the 'Toronto 18' or incidents of ecology-related arson.
Now, whether or not they should be allowed to do so, without consequence, is another matter entirely.
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Baloo said:
Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible.
Are you saying Fucking with the Signals on a rail line so fright train Y has no idea passenger train X is Stopped 1 mile ahead due to protesters on the line is not an act of Domestic terrorism?
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Baloo said:
So, I guess that the alleged disruption of train signals doesn't put anyone's life at risk in your books?
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Baloo said:
Tampering with train signals has no other effect than to try to cause massive bodily harm be it on train passengers or vehicles at a train crossing, and these INM pers are tampering with the signals to push a political goal. Is that not the very essence of the terrorism laws in Canada?
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See how that song changes when a few dozen cars full of caustic soda overturn into a wetland.
Baloo
Full Member
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Let's get this out of the way, before it goes any farther.
Yes, it is an offence, for justified reasons, to tamper with a railway signal. Yes, this could in theory endanger people's lives. This will go against my generalization of "any sort of conceivable danger," as a whole. I will not debate that, nor was that my intent. I am not sloughing it off as simple carelessness or "whattaya gonna do?" But let us put this into perspective.
As we all know, we can 'what if' this all to death. We can assume that the train was going to be diverted into Reactor B at Chalk River, or we can assume that the lines were going to be stopped to emphasize the shutting down of rail services, as there were protesters on the tracks. Either way, it doesn't matter. No-one here, unless more information has been divulged since, has any clarification on the statement made by the Winnipeg Free Press, or the subsequent investigation by VIA Rail.
There is nothing here, to remotely suggest 'domestic terrorism.' Period. What, we're going to wantonly throw out that term against a movement that none of us agree with, because of a vague, but potentially serious, alleged incident? I maintain that this isn't the same thing as the Toronto case.
Yes, it is an offence, for justified reasons, to tamper with a railway signal. Yes, this could in theory endanger people's lives. This will go against my generalization of "any sort of conceivable danger," as a whole. I will not debate that, nor was that my intent. I am not sloughing it off as simple carelessness or "whattaya gonna do?" But let us put this into perspective.
As we all know, we can 'what if' this all to death. We can assume that the train was going to be diverted into Reactor B at Chalk River, or we can assume that the lines were going to be stopped to emphasize the shutting down of rail services, as there were protesters on the tracks. Either way, it doesn't matter. No-one here, unless more information has been divulged since, has any clarification on the statement made by the Winnipeg Free Press, or the subsequent investigation by VIA Rail.
There is nothing here, to remotely suggest 'domestic terrorism.' Period. What, we're going to wantonly throw out that term against a movement that none of us agree with, because of a vague, but potentially serious, alleged incident? I maintain that this isn't the same thing as the Toronto case.
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I think we can all agree that at the very least, it is a CRIMINAL activity.
The thing is, the saboteurs likely don't understand the complex and interconnected nature of railway signals and controls. To sabotage a "local signal arm" does not effect just a single location. The is a cascade effect than can affect other portions of automated signals and switch controls in different locations, so it's not just a case of causing a train to stop at a particular location.
In the end, this will likely serve to harm the INM movement's efforts than to help.
Regards
G2G
The thing is, the saboteurs likely don't understand the complex and interconnected nature of railway signals and controls. To sabotage a "local signal arm" does not effect just a single location. The is a cascade effect than can affect other portions of automated signals and switch controls in different locations, so it's not just a case of causing a train to stop at a particular location.
In the end, this will likely serve to harm the INM movement's efforts than to help.
Regards
G2G
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Baloo said:
"The definition of “terrorist activity” in section 83.01 of the Criminal Code has two components. The first component incorporates a series of offences enacted to implement international legal instruments against terrorism. The second, more general, stand-alone component, states that a “terrorist activity” is an act or omission undertaken “in whole or in part for a political, religious, or ideological purpose, objective or cause” that is intended to intimidate the public or compel a person, government or organization to do or refrain from doing any act, if the act or omission intentionally causes a specified serious harm. Specified harms include causing death or serious bodily harm, endangering life, causing a serious risk to health or safety, causing substantial property damage where it would also cause one of the above listed harms and, in certain circumstances, causing serious interference or disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private."
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3066235&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&File=15
Please do not neglect the paragraph that follows from that same reference:
"Some hold the view that the stand-alone definition is overboard and that the reference to motive of political, religious or ideological purpose may invite “profiling” on the basis of politics, religion or ideology. This issue of the motive requirement is currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja. [2] There are also some concerns that the elements which relate to seriously interfering with or disrupting an essential service might extend anti-terrorism measures to unlawful but peaceful labour strikes or other protests. These concerns were also raised in 2001 and, in response, Parliament included in the section an exception for advocacy, protest, dissent and stoppage of work, provided these activities are not intended to cause any of the other serious forms of harm referred to in the definition."
"Some hold the view that the stand-alone definition is overboard and that the reference to motive of political, religious or ideological purpose may invite “profiling” on the basis of politics, religion or ideology. This issue of the motive requirement is currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja. [2] There are also some concerns that the elements which relate to seriously interfering with or disrupting an essential service might extend anti-terrorism measures to unlawful but peaceful labour strikes or other protests. These concerns were also raised in 2001 and, in response, Parliament included in the section an exception for advocacy, protest, dissent and stoppage of work, provided these activities are not intended to cause any of the other serious forms of harm referred to in the definition."
