First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Mick]

Ok. the rhetoric that has developed around this issue is becoming absurd. You state that "I'm sure there are thousands more tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground.'

There are millions of tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground across North America and Europe and Africa. That was reality in the 19th and early 20th century. Disease was the number 1-5 killers of people in that period. Disassociate reality at that time, and political thinking now, and then post.

Are you referring to unmarked graves? Or graveyards?

Did the Canadian government or Catholic Church bury non-Indigenous bodies in unmarked graves?

Should we assume that all schoolyards from, say, before 1950 have bodies buried around them?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was musing about this story and it occurred to me that it's another prime example at how incompetent this particular Federal government is. It is very likely that the funding for the radar survey's came out of government money dedicated for that purpose and that the government had a fair idea of what they are likley to find. Instead of getting out in front of the story and announcing they were assisting bands in finding the victims of residential schools and preparing the media ground for this, they blissfully whistled past the graveyard and now are stumbling to catch up to the story. My guess is that this will go on with more "discoveries" for about two years. Had they gotten out front of the story they could have also said how they help the bands deal with the remains.
I also bet they didn't give a heads up to the provincial government that they were doing this, so they have to catch up as well.

 

[Weinie]

Are you referring to unmarked graves? Or graveyards?

Did the Canadian government or Catholic Church bury non-Indigenous bodies in unmarked graves?
Should we assume that all schoolyards from, say, before 1950 have bodies buried around them?

I'm referring to why people died.

Did everyone get buried in a marked grave in the 19th century? Do those markers still exist?

Why would you assume that?

 

[Mick]

I'm referring to why people died.

Did everyone get buried in a marked grave in the 19th century? Do those markers still exist?

Why would you assume that?

Yes, people die. No, not all graves are marked.

We don't know why or how these children died, or where they were buried (until now), and their relatives didn't know either.

The horrors of the residential school system are well-known and acknowledged by the government. These children were taken from their families and were supposed be cared for. I'd argue that includes marking a grave and keeping a record, if they die while in that care.

So perhaps this is why the rhetoric is different.

 

[Weinie]

Yes, people die. No, not all graves are marked.

We don't know why or how these children died, or where they were buried (until now), and their relatives didn't know either.

The horrors of the residential school system are well-known and acknowledged by the government. These children were taken from their families and were supposed be cared for. I'd argue that includes marking a grave and keeping a record, if they die while in that care.

So perhaps this is why the rhetoric is different.

Perhaps when looked at through the lens of 21st century sensibilities,

I am not concluding whether it was wrong or right, I am simply saying that to apply contemporary thought processes to 19th century decisions is wrong,

 

[Mick]

Perhaps when looked at through the lens of 21st century sensibilities,

I am not concluding whether it was wrong or right, I am simply saying that to apply contemporary thought processes to 19th century decisions is wrong,

Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald. Still, I understand the anger.

And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.

 

[Weinie]

Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald. Still, I understand the anger.

And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.

Yeah, I too understand the anger, and the the hurt inflicted.

 

[Kilted]

Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald. Still, I understand the anger.

And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.

Are we going to at all? How many of these graves are they actually planning to dig up?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Likely very few, I suspect that the areas will be consecrated, bought by the Feds and turned into reserve/special status lands and markers and memorials made, all funded by the Feds which in this case I think is appropriate.

 

[brihard]

A good step in moving forward would likely be to compel any of the religious institutions involved to product any documents or records still in their possession that can shed any light on any of the deaths, burials, etc. There should be hiding hiding of records allowed on this. Legislate as necessary.

 

[Quirky]

A good step in moving forward would likely be to compel any of the religious institutions involved to product any documents or records still in their possession that can shed any light on any of the deaths, burials, etc. There should be hiding hiding of records allowed on this.

You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.

 

[Mick]

Are we going to at all? How many of these graves are they actually planning to dig up?

No idea. But I suppose it could potentially provide closure to families, in some way, if identification was possible.

 

[Good2Golf]

You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.

Find remaining relatives/families to apologize and possibly some closure. It wouldn’t be a waste either of time or resources.

Look at the reverence a nation gives to one, unnamed human from an unmarked grave away from home…let’s at least be equally mindful of hundreds/thousands of the nation’s children…

 

[brihard]

You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.

You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died. Carrying it beyond that, there may be particular institutions that were worse than others, and where viable grounds for criminal investigation may exist. You need to build the fact set before deciding what to do with it.

If the Fort Frances Foreskin Fusiliers could be expected to rip their BOR apart looking for Somalia documents, I think we can expect the churches to cough up fulsome disclosure on everything they had to do with a far darker chapter in our history.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died. Carrying it beyond that, there may be particular institutions that were worse than others, and where viable grounds for criminal investigation may exist. You need to build the fact set before deciding what to do with it.

If the Fort Frances Foreskin Fusiliers could be expected to rip their BOR apart looking for Somalia documents, I think we can expect the churches to cough up fulsome disclosure on everything they had to do with a far darker chapter in our history.

My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.

 

[Good2Golf]

My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.

Hopefully we don’t get only a vapid “They’re asking more than we can give!” from the PM.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The disclaimer from The Beaverton


So when is satire appropriate on this site, either member generated or quoted and linked?

The Beaverton has fallen down on the job. Were they not aware that religious building arsonists are entitled to equal representation under News Media Council guidelines? Or are the arsonists to blame for not targeting non-Christian places of worship enough? We have to go back to 2015 for a mosque arson piece from The Beaverton.

Am I being an arsehole? Definitely and deliberately. But on a few recent occasions there have been links/quotes from satire sites that have targeted political figures and (unless one actually searched and discovered that it was satire) could easily have been taken at face value as the true words of an unliked political figure and no effort was made to correct any errors or to draw attention to "satire". Now, I will agree that arson is wrong. Having been raised in a Newfoundland Irish Catholic tradition, it is only natural that I lack any belief in the Church's teaching or have any respect for the institution. But it would be an unusual event for me to cheer the conflagration of a Catholic owned building . . . the last time was December 1969 and it was a school, not a church.

Yes, I am well aware the Beaverton is a satire site.

I am commenting on the chatter class quietly cheering on church arsonists “because the Catholic Church is a bunch of assholes”. Even the local band councils affected are decrying and condemning arson.

When 9-11 happened, western governments everywhere made a special point of telling citizens not to blame all muslims and every single incidence of mosque vandalism was loudly decried by every elected official from dogcatcher to head of state.

Do people even realize that these small band churches getting burned aren’t owned by Vatican? They were built, paid for and maintained by the band members themselves, including the ones today who no longer have use of these buildings. So who is suffering as a result of these fires? The Vatican? Think again.

If these local parishes want to disband their churches in protest of the larger Catholic (or Anglican) church, let them make that decision. They don’t need others burning them down for them.

Oh, in case anyone thinks that I am defending Residential Schools, I am not nor ever will. I just do not see how group punishing people today who had nothing to do with events of the past will solve anything or contribute to reconciliation.

 

[OldSolduer]

You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died.

Archives are the true history of any institution. Pretty much every organization has archives of some sort, so there is an extremely good chance that there are files somewhere.

 

[brihard]

My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.

Yup, probably. But I think our government owes it to the victims and to the rest of the country- get to the truth, however it should play out. Canadians deserve to have this investigated in as fulsome a manner as it can be, so that hopefully actual reconciliation can be pursued and this ugly crap consigned to the history books.

 

[GAP]

Yup, probably. But I think our government owes it to the victims and to the rest of the country- get to the truth, however it should play out. Canadians deserve to have this investigated in as fulsome a manner as it can be, so that hopefully actual reconciliation can be pursued and this ugly crap consigned to the history books.

There was TB, and a host of other diseases that affected the children that they had not been exposed to the before. The federal government refused to pay to have the bodies returned to the tribe, they told the schools to just bury them and inform the parents