"Flavours of Democracy"

[Infanteer]

We can solve the blood line problem by ensuring Kirkhill is cloned a few million times. This would give Emporor Infanteer an army to subdue the Universe...... ;D

I seen that idea somewhere in a movie once....only I'm going to have 1 million raving Caladonians instead of Jango Fetts - any chance of painting "Slave I" on your car, Kirkhill?

 

[Kirkhill]

No hope mate - "She who must be obeyed" already has first crack.

 

[Zipper]

Sorry Zipper but the facts speak otherwise. European countries do indeed have higher taxes. Their unemployment rates are almost double that of the US at 10%, and their rate of economic growth is hovering around the 2% mark. Japan is suffering a similar economic situation, although the proximate causes are a bit different.

Actually the unemployment rate in the EU as a whole is sitting at 8.9%. Yes some of the new members are higher, especially the eastern ones, but on the whole they are better off.

As well, Europe is now the largest economy in the world and far outstrips the US. And will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Even with more holiday time, lower work weeks, and better benefits, the Europeans are on par if not slightly higher then the States in overall efficiency.

However, there are better ways of looking at success. The GDP is probably the worst way. Quality of life per capita measurements make much more sense. In which case the US is down there with many third world countries.

If you are referring to the Americans as being selfish, just look to the Tsunami zone, where the Americans sent more money, manpower and equipment than anyone else (and faster too), even though they are not well liked in that region. The oh so helpful Europeans can be categorized as well. Italy, a member of the Coallition of the willing in Iraq, sent their "DART" to Siri Lanka within 48 hr. France, the only European nation with a nuclear powered aircraft carrier (a very handy item in a disaster scenario as well, self contained airport, hospital, electrical generating station, water purification supply, etc. etc.) still hasn't made any moves to send their ship into the Pacific.....

No argument that they did a fine job there and should receive very high praise. I guess I should have painted within the lines on that comment as opposed to shot gunning it..

They are selfish in the way they think towards their own people and the world at large. Their way of thinking (going back to Kirkhill's history lesson) is that the individual is the most important. Their whole "American dream" is based upon that self achievement ideal. Thus some make "it", while the vast majority do not. And if you don't make it...      ...to hell with you. Thus they have more/higher slums, poor, homeless, low income earners, crime (violent and otherwise), prison populations, drug abuse, obesity, etc. per capita. And lower personal freedoms, especially after 9/11 then almost all other western nations (combined in some cases).

Meanwhile the higher taxed Europeans have less (and more) of the above and still manage to look after their own as a community, have higher education standards (and paid for), free medical, and still be able to maintain properly equipt militarys.

Do they bitch and complain? You bet. Not unlike any free society. We're spoiled that way.

I would suggest reading European Dream by Rifkin. Not the only book to read, but a good one none the less.

So no argument as to Kirkhill's statement that things will change. Hopefully for the better. Just in a different direction.

 

[Kirkhill]

If believing in the individual is selfish.......then colour me selfish.

 

[Zipper]

lol. No Kirkhill. There is nothing wrong with believing in yourself, nor in your individuality. Its when the ideal of the individual and the health thereof is held above that of the group that it is selfish.

What is that saying? The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few...

 

[Kirkhill]

And which individual makes the decision on behalf of the many?

 

[Zipper]

Your the Poli Sci major. You tell me...

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, I trust me..... but I'm  too busy with my family to worry about you. ;D

 

[Zipper]

Nice one... ;D

Well then its a good thing you live in Canada and your taxes ensure that I, and many others are taken care of in your stead.

 

[Kirkhill]

You're welcome

 

[Torlyn]

However, there are better ways of looking at success. The GDP is probably the worst way. Quality of life per capita measurements make much more sense. In which case the US is down there with many third world countries.

I gotta ask...  Where on earth did you find any study that says the Americans have a lower quality of life than a third world nation?  I doubt this claim.  If I'm wrong, please show me where I can discover this revelation for myself.

T

 

[Zipper]

I gotta ask... Where on earth did you find any study that says the Americans have a lower quality of life than a third world nation? I doubt this claim. If I'm wrong, please show me where I can discover this revelation for myself.

I didn't say lower then a third world nation. I said down there with...

There are many, but one such study would be with the Pembina Institue at http://www.pembina.org/sustainability_mea.asp#

You'll have to contact them to get a copy of such.

 

[Infanteer]

What is that saying? The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few...

I've seen that quote mentioned in various forms before.

Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism seems to talk about it a bit as well.

I didn't say lower then a third world nation. I said down there with...

There are many, but one such study would be with the Pembina Institue at http://www.pembina.org/sustainability_mea.asp#

You'll have to contact them to get a copy of such.

Funny, I've got family split between Vancouver and Seattle (as well as ties in California and Texas) - and going between the two, I don't see much difference.  So either:

1)  Canada is a third-world country

2)  Your statement is out-to-lunch.  Have you ever been in a Third World Country?

 

[Torlyn]

I didn't say lower then a third world nation. I said down there with...

There are many, but one such study would be with the Pembina Institue at http://www.pembina.org/sustainability_mea.asp#

Which particular study?  I emailed them after I couldn't find it last night, and they just responded that they were unaware that they had any such specific study...  Could you perhaps point me in another direction?  Everything on their website is focused on Alberta. Not to be rude, but I'm calling BS on this one.

T

 

[Pieman]

I never read any of those studies, but generally I don't consider a country to have a low quality of life until this becomes the main mode of transportaion:

Oddly enough, it reminds me of my student days.

Last time I checked they still drive cars in the states.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Here is one American's point of view of our Monarchy.
I tried to post the whole but it exceeded the max.

Read it,in her oipinion we members of the Commomwealth Rule the World.


http://www.rense.com/general62/britt.htm

 

[Torlyn]

Dear lord...  I wonder if perhaps she has coathangers hanging from her ceiling, and a tinfoil hat.  :  What a loon!  Aggressive little island...  That sure made me giggle.

I mean, does she honestly believe that all of the commonwealth countries follow Britain's lead in UN voting?  I'm sure Zimbabwe and Kenya do...  :  Oy vey.

T

 

[Spr.Earl]

A gooder eh Torn. ;D
But just think if we could muster that power as she stated.

 

[Zipper]

Funny, I've got family split between Vancouver and Seattle (as well as ties in California and Texas) - and going between the two, I don't see much difference.   So either:

1)   Canada is a third-world country

2)   Your statement is out-to-lunch.   Have you ever been in a Third World Country?

1) No and 2) Yes. Seattle is probably one of the best cities in the US. Hard comparison there. Try going to East LA, Phillie, Cleveland, Burnt out Detroit.

Pieman. No argument there. But that is on such an extreme end of the scale. Would you consider Brazil, Argentina, Chile as third world? Barbados? Their all on the list.

Which particular study? I emailed them after I couldn't find it last night, and they just responded that they were unaware that they had any such specific study... Could you perhaps point me in another direction? Everything on their website is focused on Alberta. Not to be rude, but I'm calling BS on this one.

Ok. After talking to some friends of mine who were there with me for the introduction of this particular method of study. I have been found to have exaggerated what I remember of the presentation. Sorry.

You are correct that the Pembina Inst. mainly concentrates on Alberta. However, when they first thought up this method, they had to do many tests to find out if it was viable and even a correct way of looking at things. They used not only Canada as a whole (finding Alberta near the bottom of the heap), but also compared some countries around the world. The States being one. They found that the US falls well short of many of its western brothers for quality of life of its people "as a whole". Very close to some to what we would consider third world countries. So outside of being a test, it was not an official study.

Now to explain this way of thinking to some.

Most of the time we use the GDP as a method of "health" of a nation. However it only measures economic activity, and not the intangibles that go towards making a better life for people. Thus the amount spent on police, prisons, education, trade, pollution clean-up, and virtually any spending at all goes towards a positive in the GDP.

These alternative methods (Genuine progress indicators) of looking at "health" of a nation look at things from both a positive and negative point of view per capita. Thus spending on prisons would be a negative, while amount spent on rehbrehabilitationcriminals would be looked at as a positive. The amount spent on envienvironmentalservation a positive, The amount spent to create a envienvironmentalaster site a negative, while the amount spent on cleaning it up a positive. Education spending a positive. Health spending positive. Numbers of people living below the poverty line negative. Etc...

Its long and complicated, but in the end it gives a better general view of how the people of a certain nation are doing AS A WHOLE.

Thus my statement, while being exaggerated, I am sorry for that, is still essentially true.

Here is another study done on the US itself. http://www.rprogress.org/newpubs/2004/gpi_march2004update.pdf

Another: http://www.biodiv.org/doc/2010/the-genuine-progress-indicator-sep02.pdf

And for those who just want to know what is going on with the EU: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/D36/54/ACF15D0.pdf


To Earl: Wow. She has some valid points, but takes them a little far in their useage and power. Oh well. We all have our ways of looking at the world.

 

[Torlyn]

A gooder eh Torn. ;D
But just think if we could muster that power as she stated.

That'd be great...  I'll bet she's one of the few Americans that has a firearm in her house because she *ACTUALLY* thinks she'll have to defend against the King of England.

I also enjoyed the "after we beat the British in 1812".  I wonder where she got that history book from? 

T