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"Flavours of Democracy"

Both systems are to far apart for anything but strife to happen.

No they are not.  The perceptions are too far apart.

The structures are not noticeably different.  The points of debate are not noticeably different.  The differences lie in the directions the INDIVIDUALS that lead their countries take the debates and the decisions that result.

Those directions and those decisions are taken in support of policy promulgated by the leaders, often precisely to split popular opinion and create a faction that will support the Leader in the execution of policy.

And that it true for every country, state, province, town-council, boardroom and tea party.

Somebody was just commenting a few days ago about the interminable debate about re-organizing NDHQ.  This is the same debate largely, within certain limits, many systems will get you to the same place.  All of them can be used effectively and all of them ineffectively.

Differences in national policy do not greatly reflect differences in national polity.  Differences between states reflect differences between the leadership and the leadership is made up of individuals.

Cheers Zipper.

And Infanteer - retitle this thread or I will have to consider letting folks know the truth about you ;D :salute:

 
The socialist conundrum has come to haunt us. Socialism essentially assumes we will sacrifice our own wants and needs to "The Greater Good", without being specific as to how this will be achieved. In National Socialism, the "Will" of the "Race" was to be expressed by "One extraordinary person, the 'Leader' (spell check doesn't like German, I guess)". The Communists chose economic class rather than racial origin as their mantra, and told us a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would decide. Dictators being dictators, they have by far the greatest mass murder record in history (Hitler is the best known, but Stalin is credited with 20 million, Mao could be responsible for 40 million, the Khmer Rouge with 3 million, Saddam Hussein for about a million........)

Being less attracted to grandiose rhetoric, modern socialists do not have a single overriding class or race, but still insist on "group rights" for various groups which have been collectively "victimized".(It is interesting to see the reaction when people refuse to behave as part of a group. Secretary of State Dr. Rice is an excellent example of this). Although we speak the language of individual rights, notice how quickly your personal rights can be trumped by a "group", for example hiring quotas could displace you from getting a job despite your qualifications to do the same; or your property could be expropriated. (Some groups do not even exist as real or corporate humans; the environment is also treated as having a "right" to trump your rights).

The end result is a mish mash of often conflicting rules and regulations designed to advance the "rights" of certain groups, and with the mandate of "gay marriage", there is no longer much of a pretense to enacting laws by the legislature; far easier to do things by judicial fiat. It is interesting to note that the American Democrats are marshalling almost all of their energies in nominating and appointing judges; or opposing those that Republicans nominate. This is because they are well aware that judicial fiat is one of the few ways their program of radical Liberalism can be imposed. (I am not confident the Democrats can continue to exist in their present form. Their program is propagandized by people like Micheal Moore, and they have vast financial resources behind them. Moderates who are or were Democrats might either become "Reagan Democrats" (i.e. vote Republican regardless; attempt to regain control of the party; or fold their tents and found a new "centrist" party).

The American experiment is still the best example of "how to do it". The areas of government control are limited by the constitution, so only in exceptional circumstances will the Government decide what is best. True, the explosive growth in government since the 1960s tends to overshadow this ideal, but the results are unmistakable, America is the first choice of refugees and immigrants, it has the highest GDP, fastest growing economy, lowest unemployment and is the least aggressive hegemon in history.
 
S_Baker said:
I have lived in both USA/Canada, Europe, Korea, and Japan.  

I have lived in both Canada and the US.

For the most part these discussions are counterproductive, it can bring out the worst in people.   Citizens of each nation have reasons to be proud and feel good about each other.   (yeah I know, my wife must have fed me saltpeter this morning).

I agree completely, and I dread these useless slanging matches that always end up going the same way: "We're better than you are-nah-nah". So what?

There is one thing that I cannot explain, why has economic development spread through out the United States but Canada's seems to be centered around Upper and Lower Canada?

Actually some of our most vibrant and powerful economic development is occurring out west, in cities like Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver. I live in Winnipeg, a western city of about 700,000   which is growing steadily and has very low unemployment and the second most diversified economy of any major city in Canada. Part of our problem is geographic: go about 300km north of the border and you start to get into some areas that are not hospitable for large scale development (although we do have good sized communities up there such as Sudbury and Thunder Bay in Ontario). Also, remember that settlement (and thus economic activity) in the East of Canada has a head start of about a century or more on the West: most of the Western Provinces did not even achieve that status until very late in the 19th or in the early 20th centuries. Finally, you simply cannot discount the "magnetic" effect of the gigantic US economy.We are a nation of about 30 million plus, while you are much, much bigger. We are each other's largest trading partners, and while this is great for you, IMHO   it has a distorting effect on us.

  Not just that, there are several Interstates that go north to the CDN border but there is no road comparable north of the 49th (with a few exceptions in the east and on the West coasts)  

I think you need to travel in Canada by car a bit more. While we cannot claim to have an Interstate system as complex as you do (see size, above) we do have thousands of kilometres of very good lateral multi-lane highway. (I know-I've driven just about all of it during my career). We have some crap, below-standard highways (especially in the poorer provinces) but then I've been on Interstates that were no screaming hell either. It is important to note that highway construction in Canada is not a Federal issue: it is Provincial. Even the Trans Canada is carried to a great extent on the financial backs of the provinces, despite some Fed money.

Have Canadian governments always tried to control access to US culture, finance, markets?

No, historically the opposite: we have tried various protectionist schemes to protect our smaller, weaker economy against the crushing effects of yours. We have tried to negotiate access to yours, with the Auto Pact and the FTA being the two examples that come to mind. We have a number of subsidies and support schemes for various sectors of our economy, but then so does the US. For example IIRC you are one of the largest farm subsidizers in the G8.

Is this due to the system of government in Canada or is it more than that?

It is due to a whole host of factors, some of which I have outlined above, but to which I would add history: always a great shaper. Canada, although it is smaller in all senses except geography, is no less complex a country than the US: we have many issues in our past and present that are not evident to outsiders but serve to shape us. Our history and geography have produced our political culture, which has in turned produced the sort of political system we have. Our system is always changing, bit by bit, but like any political system (including yours) there are ricebowls to be protected, regional concerns to be noted, and traditions to be honoured.

[
Cheers
 
Canada is a British political system but influenced by the United States (the same could be said for our Army).  The British parliamentary system has served us well, although we do have to deal with greater regional issues.  

I see some calls to "restore the balance" but I believe that our Parliamentary system has always had the fusion of the legislative with a de facto executive.  Real political power has always been wielded by the PM.  The GG has been largely symbolic for some time.  The Supreme Court has actually increased its relative powers in the last twenty years.  Canada has been more concerned with Peace, Order and Good Government than with Checks and Balances and worrying about some mythical tyrant that's going to take over.

Comparisons with the US are always fascinating, but we must remember that there is at least one rather fundamental difference between the two countries.  The US has an "underlying consensus" that means that despite political differences Americans have a more "unified" sense of national self.  Canada does not and never has.  We should bear in mind, however, that the US had a Civil War that ironed out some of the bigger wrinkles in the underlying consensus.  I lived in the US for six months, have many friends there and am an admirer of our Southern neighbour (and the bit to the NorthWest too).  That being said my stubborn Scots ancestry takes great pride in our way of life.

Canadian politics will always be somewhat different that American politics due to this reason.  We have some strange arrangements that look weird in writing but in practice Canadian governance is focused on keeping the country together despite the lack of an underlying consensus.  Ours is a day to day negotiation where practice means much more than theory and the present interpretation of spirit means more than the letter.

As for socialism we do have a greater leaning in that direction but I'd still put us to the right of Europe.  On the plus side we have universal health care.  On the minus side we have unemployment and higher taxes.  We can get away with it, however, by living next to an economic powerhouse and providing raw inputs into that machine.  Again, its both good and bad but we are never going to get away from it.

Cheers,

2B
 
Amplifying 2Bravo's point a bit:

Social Security & the Family
The case President Bush should be making.

By Richard Vigilante

In Social Security reform, social conservatives and free-market types finally have an issue that ought to bring them enthusiastically together. Oddly, the White House that created this splendid opportunity seems slow to realize it.

Most of the discussion about personal accounts so far has focused on an unedifying debate about stock-market returns decades in the future. Much of the silliest material comes from the White House itself. One choice document, a "White Paper" from the Council of Economic Advisors, solemnly affirms the Social Security Trustees' prediction that U.S. economic growth over the next 50 years will average a paltry 1.9 percent per year, much less than over the past 100 years. Then the very same document goes on to assert that U.S. stock-market returns will continue to average the robust 6.5-6.8 percent annual real returns we have seen since early last century.

In other words, the White argues that we need Social Security reform because the economy is headed for a 50-year slump, but that private accounts are the answer because stock-market returns are going to be as good as ever.

Far from papering over this contradiction, the White House actually celebrates it, proclaiming "there is no necessary connection between stock returns and economic growth in the long run."

This is nonsense. Over time a general rise in share prices can be supported only by a general rise in corporate earnings, which can come only from robust economic growth. The council defends its position by claiming the global cost of capital and the risk premium demanded by equity investors are the real drivers of share prices. But the net effect is just nonsense on stilts. (For those who care, the risk premium responds to expected earnings and thus ties back to growth quite directly. Everything always does.)

The White House finds itself obliged to spout such drivel because it has chosen to sell Social Security reform on the notion that the present system is in crisis. The result is a sales pitch premised on decades of economic failure to come â ” not the kind of case an incumbent Republican administration ought to be making.

How about this as an argument instead?

Thanks to three decades of amazingly good economic policy, the U.S. economy is in great shape. With tax policy under President Bush even better than it was under President Reagan and a growing consensus for capitalism around the globe, the odds are that Americans are going to continue to create wealth with at least the astonishing alacrity we've seen since climbing out of the malaise of the 1970s.

The reason we should reform Social Security is not that we are so poor we have no choice, but that we are so rich now we can afford to make it what it should have been all along: not a subsistence program for impoverished elders but a way to strengthen American families and democracy itself.

Social Security has long been inadvertently antifamily. In the first place, parents who pay vast sums to raise children find their children's paychecks "socialized" to pay for the retirement of someone else's parents. Still worse, Social Security disappears at death, resulting in less "family capital" to be transmitted to the next generations. Emotional ties between family members have always been important, but so have economic ones. Social Security tends to weaken family ties by replacing the need for "family capital" in the form of the extended household with a check from the government.

Most bluntly, Social Security severely reduced the attractions of the old for the young by making the former dependents during their old age rather than potential benefactors after passing. The old tend to be much more popular with their heirs.

Social Security was not anti-family "on purpose," of course. Nonetheless it is worth asking what the poor and working-class family structure in America would be like today if Social Security had been a personal-accounts program from the very beginning, enhanced for the first few decades with a flat-out income supplement for near-term retirees.

What if essentially every intact American family had a repository of inherited wealth, now two generations in the making, to pass on to the young? Would divorce be so common, or family formation so low? Would the young so easily spin out of the influence of the old? Would the path of hard work and gradual progress out of poverty seem so much less credible as an alternative to dealing drugs or other scams?

What if every American family was bourgeois?

Actually, that is not quite the right word. For Jefferson, democracy â ” the government of citizens by citizens â ” implied that the majority of the citizenry would be made up of small freeholders, citizens with sufficient capital in land to render them reasonably independent of both the state and the market in its more nakedly aggressive forms.

In a bustling commercial republic on its way to becoming a great industrial power, Jefferson's vision rightly dissolved into a romantic fantasy. And yet it is impossible to deny that for all our wealth we still feel the deep anxiety of a people with an enviable income statement but no balance sheet to speak of â ” profoundly dependent on either the next paycheck or, when the paychecks stop, the government.

That anxiety remains a major force in our culture and our politics. It was the root of socialism. Even today it makes the Democratic party possible. No, the reality is worse. It makes the Democratic party necessary, like an overpriced commercial insurance policy for an especially risky venture.

The great Western economic drama â ” the progress from serf to peasant to free holder to unionized industrial worker to knowledge worker â ” is precisely the journey from having a firm claim on modest but durable assets and extended family support, along with a miserable income, to having a much higher income but no claim on anything or anyone in this world â ” not even your spouse (divorce rate 50 percent, available unilaterally and essentially for free), your parents (now divorced and parents to someone else's children, or old and wards of the state), or your children (why come to us when you're wards of the state) â ” other than the government.

Now, finally, we don't have to make the trade off. We can build a society rich in both assets and income. We can be a republic of freeholders. We can't all be rich, but we can all have independent means. We can have not only high personal incomes but family wealth as well. And where your treasure is, there will your heart lie.

â ” Richard Vigilante is co-editor of the Whitebox Market Observer, an investment strategy service, and has a dim but delightful memory of having been articles editor at National Review, sometime in the last century.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/vigilante200502160744.asp
 
Ok Kirkhill, I'll agree with you again...      ...sheesh this is getting to be a regular scary occurrence. :salute:

a_majoor said:
The socialist conundrum has come to haunt us. Socialism essentially assumes we will sacrifice our own wants and needs to "The Greater Good", without being specific as to how this will be achieved. In National Socialism, the "Will" of the "Race" was to be expressed by "One extraordinary person, the 'Leader' (spell check doesn't like German, I guess)". The Communists chose economic class rather than racial origin as their mantra, and told us a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would decide. Dictators being dictators, they have by far the greatest mass murder record in history (Hitler is the best known, but Stalin is credited with 20 million, Mao could be responsible for 40 million, the Khmer Rouge with 3 million, Saddam Hussein for about a million........)

Isn't it amazing how close the two extremes of thinking (communist and fascists) are so very alike?

a_majoor said:
Being less attracted to grandiose rhetoric, modern socialists do not have a single overriding class or race, but still insist on "group rights" for various groups which have been collectively "victimized".(It is interesting to see the reaction when people refuse to behave as part of a group. Secretary of State Dr. Rice is an excellent example of this). Although we speak the language of individual rights, notice how quickly your personal rights can be trumped by a "group", for example hiring quotas could displace you from getting a job despite your qualifications to do the same; or your property could be expropriated. (Some groups do not even exist as real or corporate humans; the environment is also treated as having a "right" to trump your rights).

Although the argument would then be...        ...is the individuals personal rights be more important then society as a whole? Not that I agree with hiring quota's over personal ability, but it does call into question then why in America that "national security" overrides all individual rights? Because the people believe it does...

a_majoor said:
The American experiment is still the best example of "how to do it". The areas of government control are limited by the constitution, so only in exceptional circumstances will the Government decide what is best. True, the explosive growth in government since the 1960s tends to overshadow this ideal, but the results are unmistakable, America is the first choice of refugees and immigrants, it has the highest GDP, fastest growing economy, lowest unemployment and is the least aggressive hegemon in history.

Did you add this in here just to get me going? Or do you actually believe it? The least aggressive? Hmmm...      ...you mean that they are not overtly empire building? But to believe that their policies have not either directly, or in-directly lead to more deaths around the world either in conflicts, or in plain suffering then many of the Dictators or Empires of the past and present is rather naive. Its just that they don't keep count of such things in their body counts.

As well Majoor. Good articles. However. I wonder how he came to the conclusion that the economic health of the nation is that strong when they have a bigger debt then any time in history?

LOL

Yep, here we go again...

Sorry Kirkhill.

 
We can be a republic of freeholders. We can't all be rich, but we can all have independent means. We can have not only high personal incomes but family wealth as well. And where your treasure is, there will your heart lie.

Okay, split off the tax debate.  Back to "Democratic Flavour" and the idea of Jeffersonian ideals, here is a quote that always sticks to my mind that may be worth looking at:

The elementary republics of the wards, the county republics, the State republics, and the republic of the Union, would form a gradation of authorities, standing each on the basis of the law ... Where every man is a sharer in the direction of his ward-republic, or of some of the higher ones, and feels that he is a participator in the government of affairs, not merely on an election one day in the year but on every day; when there shall not be a man in the State who will not be a member of one of its councils, great or small, he will let his heart be torn out of his body sooner than his power be wrested from hum by a Caesar or a Bonaparte.

Thomas Jefferson


In the debates of forming a democratic republic, Hamiltonian Federal Union by Representatives won out over Jeffersonian Direct Rule by "freeholders" - considering that the US would soon transform from a colonial/mercantile economic backwater into an Industrial Age powerhouse, it is probably for the better that, as the article my A Majoor points out, that Jefferson's ideals were abandoned.

Canada to was formed around the notion of (Con)federal union by representatives and a binary split in power between Central and Provincial government powers - curiously enough, today the intent of the Founding Fathers (strong states, weak federal government) and of the Framers of Confederation (strong federal government, weak provinces) has experienced a juxtaposition, but ce la vie.  Anyways, Canada, like the US, built its government for an Industrial Era where the state was pre-eminent and communication and transportation was relatively slow.

With the Information Age, we are clearly in a different condition with regards to time and space.  The notion as government as the paternal overseer is gradually fading away as people find outlets in Civil Society (NGO's, interest groups) to represent their political interests.  Communication is instantaneous and information about something in Calgary can be received by people as it happens, regardless of whether they are in Ottawa, Halifax, Vancouver, or Calgary itself.

Does this Information Age society leave avenues for altering the "flavour of democracy" by reducing some of the "Hamiltonian" aspects of (Con)federal Representation in return for allowing a degree of Jeffersonian independent freeholders, able to use their sovereign franchise in a more direct relation to their own governance?
 
For those willing to do a little reading, here are a couple of essays which might illuminate a few of the ideas being tossed around:

http://www.friesian.com/quiz.htm

http://www.friesian.com/rights.htm
 
Infanteer said:
[Does this Information Age society leave avenues for altering the "flavour of democracy" by reducing some of the "Hamiltonian" aspects of (Con)federal Representation in return for allowing a degree of Jeffersonian independent freeholders, able to use their sovereign franchise in a more direct relation to their own governance?

Thats a very good question Inf. I'm interested to see how you would expand that to take into account a population of our size, or even that of the States.

Brad: Your first link doesn't work. But the 2nd one was good reading. Although I agree with some of the ideals of Commuitarism, it goes to far into an absolute. Some good ideas. But to take that far would (as it stated) be totalitarism.

The other side of the coin that it was speaking of. That being that the judicial system is strictly for punishment is also very scary. Which is why I do not agree with the US form of law. Not thrilled with ours mind you, but oh well. As it has been proven with the crime rate, punishment does nothing to cut crime (death penalty not withstanding). And to leave it totally to individual choice to commit a crime or not, regardless of circumstances, is basically tantamount to flushing a human being down the toilet. We as a community DO have a choice to intercede and possibly prevent that person from even having to make that choice.

As well. With the idea that communitarism leads to a police state because that is the only way a State can maintain order, and that the US is based on individualism. Then why is it that the States have more police forces, more jails, more camera's to monitor the population, more fear, more information gathering on the individual, and more controls based on national security then any other western nation?

Confusing isn't it?

 
As has been pointed out, a lot of the assumptions which went into designing the forms of government we have were overtaken by events; the Congress of the United States exerts far more power over the individual than the Founding Fathers ever expected or envisioned, and the strong centre, weak provinces formula of the Fathers of Confederation is also wildly out of sync with their expectations.

Switzerland is often held up as an example for democratic reform. Citizens can propose legislation through direct referendums (organized at the citizen level, not at the whim of the government), which the government must then consider. Citizens can be directly engaged with the issues of the day, and if enough of them are excited about the idea of a gun registry or "gay marriage" (to use two Canadian examples), then they can organize, raise a petition and put issues on the table for legislation, rather than having to accept something is law by judicial fiat or because the PMO thinks it is a good way to get votes. This is probably what Infanteer is alluding to; the means of getting citizens constructively involved with the issues, and feeling they can take positive action.

There still need to be checks and balances, if our systems are drifting into Oligarchies, a broadly based "Democracy" based on direct citizen participation may tend to drift towards "mob rule", with clever demegogues setting the agenda and whipping up a mob frenzy for support (as the ancient Athenians found to their cost).
 
And to leave it totally to individual choice to commit a crime or not, regardless of circumstances, is basically tantamount to flushing a human being down the toilet. We as a community DO have a choice to intercede and possibly prevent that person from even having to make that choice.

Ans how would you go about this?
 
There still need to be checks and balances, if our systems are drifting into Oligarchies, a broadly based "Democracy" based on direct citizen participation may tend to drift towards "mob rule", with clever demegogues setting the agenda and whipping up a mob frenzy for support (as the ancient Athenians found to their cost).

A couple of days ago I made the observation in response to Zipper that at the structural level there really isn't a lot to differentiate one country's government from the other.  Virtually every country has a Head of State, a Head of Government, a Cabinet, a bureaucracy, a legislature (single or multi-chambered - In Canada I think we could argue that the Privy Council could actually constitute a 3rd chamber along with the Senate and the Commons), a judiciary, police, military.......

The differences are in the rules.  Rules of eligibility and rules of operation.

Now to Hockey.

Hockey is a game.  It is governed by rules.  After a while all teams figure out how to use the rules to their best advantage.  The either succeed themselves or watch others and learn how they do it and copy success.  After a while everybody is playing the game the same way and factors outside those regulated on the ice take over.  Bigger players render the ice smaller making the game more defensive for example.  Those that can afford to hire the biggest players tend to have the least goals against.  The exceptional little man that can score goals becomes increasingly valuable.

Likewise, for many, politics is a game played in the same vein.  The parties learn how to use the rules to their advantage.  Those that learn fastest end up dominating the game.

Revolutions occur when people wish to change the dominant group and can't see how to do that within the rules.  But they are traditionally destructive, destabilizing and usually don't end up achieving their goal becaus most supporters find they have just changed one oligarchy for another.

Is there a way to institutionalize "radical" rule changes from time to time so as to reset the oligarchies?  And still do this within the bounds of tradition and maintain continuity?

Are there political equivalents to erasing the red line, widening the rink and increasing the size of the net?

 
We may be seeing it happening now, with the evolution of Internet technology.

Most kingdoms, empires and states were constrained by the communications technology of the day. You can even see this here in North America, the states and provinvces on the east coast were defined by "hard" geographic boundaries and the size of the areas that could be connected by men riding on horses. Even the "Canadas" were defined by geography and horsemanship, the modern provinces of Ontario and Quebec are largely shaped they way they are due to the inclusion of "Rupert's Land" into Canada. "Rupert's land" itself was defined mostly by the system of rivers used to maintain the fur trade. As we go further west, the sizes of the provinces and states change due to the introduction of railroads and telegraphs, allowing larger areas to be controlled from the centre, so to speak.

The internet is a vast Increase in the communications bandwidth, which "could" result in a nightmarish "1984" scenario, since Big Brother really will have the ability to observe you 24/7. Luckily for us, the Internet is a two way system, which allows us to observe Big Brother, as well as simply side stepping him when he gets in the way.

My take on this is in well connected civic societies, this will lead to interest groups being able to find each other, and then to assemble resources, and finally to start and manage projects which governments cannot or will not do. Given the vast numbers of possible interest groups, and the fact that in nations practicing "Civic Nationalism" people will tend to be in overlapping groups (i.e. the other day I stumbled across a series of linked sites, all devoted to conservative government, but one run by an evangelical black woman, and one by a gay man. In this case, politics was the intersection of their interests). In less well connected societies, or ones dominated by "blood" in Kirkhill's examples, this may lead to negative consequences if the resource and project management is used for agressive purposes (fewer overlaps mean fewer cross connections).

Resource and project management in the West could lead to the creation of new entities, such as city states (perhaps bearing nominal allegiance to the country they are sited in), free floating structures in the oceans or space which are beyond even the notional control of the parent nations, or the creation and membership supernational organizations like the various guilds and orders of the middle ages.

The final nudge will be the demographic changes noted in the other thread, European nation states are actually heading for extinction at current demographic rates. It will be interesting to see who moves into the ruind of Italy or Germany, and how they will treat the ruins (That collesium is in the way of the new mosque. Bulldoze it!)
 
Punishment certainly decreases crime rates; at least, the Americans are blaming increased incarceration rates for corresponding crime rate reductions.  When the habitual criminals are behind bars they can't commit crimes.  That at least is straightforward.  If in BC we actually lock away the people committing the vast majority of auto thefts as they pop up to claim the title, auto theft will decrease.

>Then why is it that the States have more police forces, more jails, more camera's to monitor the population, more fear, more information gathering on the individual, and more controls based on national security then any other western nation?

When I hear or see the phrase "police state", I think "Nazi Germany" or "Stalinist Russia" or "crappy little South American dictatorship", not "a country with a lot of police".  As for the rest, I haven't seen data to prove or disprove any of it.
 
Resource and project management in the West could lead to the creation of new entities, such as city states (perhaps bearing nominal allegiance to the country they are sited in), free floating structures in the oceans or space which are beyond even the notional control of the parent nations, or the creation and membership supernational organizations like the various guilds and orders of the middle ages.

I am coming to the view that the "City" is actually the natural order of things.  The "Country" is a fiction.

The City is defined by a hard, geographic reality.  Every bit as real as a river, mountain, lake, ocean or glacier.  It creates it's own climate and imposes strictures on movement of all that approach it.  People must bend to the City as much as they create the City.  On the other hand we can argue that we can melt glaciers, level mountains and divert rivers. The City is "facts on the ground" as they Palestinian - Israeli issue demonstrates.

The Country is defined by the amorphous concept of a border.  Subject to whim and constantly redefined according to interpretation.

Within the City the people are constantly forced into communication with each other and thus speak the same language.  They inter-marry and thus share the same blood.  They are a Nation.

A Country is an agglomeration of Cities.  It may also have independent pastoralists, tribes and nomads within its borders.  As does Iraq.  These individual entities all have their own individual characters and define themselves inwards by blood and language.  It is a collection of many Nations.

The challenge for anyone trying to create a Nation-State, or even an Empire, (same thing with better spin) is to convince all of the several Nations within the area of influence that they claim that they are all related and can share a common destiny.

The convincing can come at the point of a sword, at the threat of divine intervention or as response to a perceived natural external threat.  Attempts are made to find commonality and iron out differences.  Often this has meant imposing a belief system and a common language.  These strategies have been variously successful but never complete.

Those of you who have served in Afghanistan or Yugoslavia will probably have noticed something that I learned when I was five years old going up to Scotland to visit my Grandparents.  I was constantly amazed and amused by the way that they could pick out fellow Scots based on their accents.  Not just class based but geography - Lowlander from Highlander and Islander, North East from Southwest, Ayrshire from the neighbouring county of Lanarkshire,  Ayr from Irvine, Annbank from Peebles.  Based on these speech clues then they would attribute religion, education, attitudes, culture, even friend or foe (historically). 

Over the millenia the people have held many beliefs, have given allegiance to many overlords, but at the end they still define themselves by geography and blood. By their City, or town, or village.  For nomads I think we might talk about mobile villages - blood with no fixed geographic centre but certainly a sense of geography pertaining to pastures.

So when you say that the City - State is on the rise I don't think the City - State ever went away.  Nation-States could be seen as just a kinder, gentler attempt by City-States to hold dominion, to establish an Empire, over their surrounding terrain and to secure the resource base they need to survive. 

Kind of goes back to the Enlightened Self-Interested view of the world.  Better to give a little and keep the natives happy than have to incur the costs of keeping them suppressed in perpetuity.

From that, Canada started as a colony with no City-States in evidence.  Cities grew up within the colony.  Now the Cities are acting as cities always have - they are a draw on people and resources and thus are a threat to smaller communities and hinterlands.

At this point in the past, once the hinterlands started to feel threatened they did things like hauling down flags and declaring themselves independent of the centre.  The center responded either benevolently or malevolently with the tools available to reassert control.

The army was one of those tools.  The church another. The school yet another.  Sometimes the three together.

But at bottom the over-riding need was to have people bonded by a belief that was stronger than their blood-bond.

As noted this sometimes was effective and long-lasting, but never permanent.

The internet plays into this dynamic, as you suggest.  But maybe not so much in creating new societies and beliefs as validating that those with different beliefs are not alone and therefore not "lunatic fringe elements" that a dominant belief system can steam-roller.

That makes the business of Empire or Nation-State building that much harder and perhaps it does make it impossible.  In that case the end result would be the demise of borders and the return to discrete communities. 

But unlike communities of the past these would not be isolated.  They would be in communication with each other, both physically and electronically, and as everyone from Adam Smith to Marshall McLuhan and Alvin Toffler have pointed out - communication levels differences.  You might tend towards the "global village" where people are geographically isolated sufficiently to be able to honour their culture and traditions without being perceived as threats or perceiving threats.  At the same time they are sufficiently of a common mind that they are less subject to being stampeded to a course of action by demagoguery.  That sounds totally pollyannaish. :-\

In the meantime, before the "Second Coming" we will have to deal with the chaos that will result as borders are reorganized and erased and people struggle their way through existing belief base conflicts convinced in the rightness of their own position.  And that isn't going to be tidy.




 
Your historical analysis was very interesting, and I agree with almost all off it, except for the cities being the "permanent" expression of political groupings.

Cities arose late in human history, (we spent tens of thousands of years being hunter-gatherers), and even after the Neolithic revolution and the rise of agriculture, it still took a long time for cities to come into their own. Victor Davis Hanson, in a fairly brilliant inversion of the usual paradigms of Classical Greek culture points out the obvious fact that the vast majority of the population in any culture in history is rural and agrarian. (Only at the end of the 19th century did that trend finally end in the west). The Polis originally existed for the support of the farming community, being the site of the Agora and Eklassia, only later becoming both dominant and parasitic of the surrounding community.

Cities do seem "self contained", and are certainly easier to protect than, say, open range land (civic militias carved out areas of civil liberty during the middle ages because they could defy the duke or king), but they are not, which is the weak point of any argument on the dominance of cities. Raw materials, food, information and people flow into cities, to be manipulated and converted into valuable goods and services. Just as in the middle ages, cities today can still be besieged and starved into submission. Even free floating ocean or space cities will not be fully free from these ties.

Given the known weakness of cities and vulnerabilities to various forms of attack, the cities of the future may become much smaller, and the intense interaction between critical masses of people which power the economies of cities will take place through both electronic media and roving "guilds" (for want of a better word) of consultants and service professionals. Thinking back to my previous post, "post national" entities might exist such as the "City State" of Chicago, which exert economic influence and control over a wide swath of the mid west, but pay taxes to the United States Government to take advantage of the physical protection offered by the armed forces and BMD shield.

As the Chinese like to say "may you live in interesting times". Interesting indeed...
 
I take your point on permanent - poor expression perhaps.  Not to suggest they always have been but rather to suggest that once they are, Carthage notwithstanding (or is that Carthage not standing?), they are very difficult things to erase.

And the larger the population the harder it is both physically and politically.

I agree on your point about the rise of the cities but I could suggest that cities arose out of two primary entities - the successful farm - as at Jericho and Catal Huyuk - or the successful waypoint - as at Tbilisi which sits astride the pass that connects the Black Sea to the Caspian.  Then success breeds success, they grow like topsy, attract envious neighbours and need to prepare to defend their property.
This sense of security further attracts others willing to trade a bit of freedom for three squares and a bit of peace.

I wasn't suggesting that Cities were self-contained.  Far from it.  I was actually suggesting that though they are discrete - have clearly defined boundaries that may or may not be defended - their constantly growing population results in competition for resources and people.  First with the people that fill the spaces between, the hunter-gatherers, nomadic pastoralists and the settled tribes in small hamlets and farms, but ultimately with other cities expanding outwards across the same space between.  This results in conflict between equals and general war as opposed to absorption.

The end result of that is either destruction and victory, absorption, or accomodation.  In the event of accomodation borders are described and the Empires of the competing cities are recognized until the thirst for resources puts new pressure on the cities and accomodation is no longer possible. 

Cities are highly vulnerable to loss of resources.  Agreed fully.

Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver need their hinterlands to keep them supplied.  But if they aren't treating their hinterlands with care and consideration - not returning as good as they get - what is in it for the hinterlands.  Who can survive better in the event of a general falling out?  The city dweller, the farmer or the nomad?

On the other hand it would take a massive amount of political will to let things get to that pass.

It would take a lesser amount of effort to see Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, and maybe Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Halifax, declared as separate coequal entities with the provinces.

The cities themselves already are different from their hinterlands and from each other.  They all represent separate polities and the Federal Government is trying - unsuccessfully I think - to find a way to convince the residents within its boundaries that they all share something - anything - in common.  They can't use religion. They have failed on political ideology.  They are trying values - through Medicare, Day Care, Education and Pensions - but they are losing out on things like same sex marriage, gun control, capital punishment, immigration,....... So for every thing they find in common they find something else that divides.

I am not convinced that the centre can hold.  And not just in Canada, the US and Europe, China and Russia.  The one effect everyone can observe with respect to the rise of Supranational Agencies like the EU and the UN is the breakdown of old, large States/Empires into smaller ones as the smaller ones feel less threatened. 

So now we have 192? countries at the UN instead of 40 something in 1949?  The USSR splits and Russia and the Caucasus splits further as each little valley seeks to carve out a separate existence?  Iraq is at least three, maybe 18 separate states? Yugoslavia. East Timor. Aceh. Eritrea.  Scotland and Wales?  Upstate New York from New York City?

I generally perceive a move backwards towards the smaller geographic entity with tight knit family ties and a reorganization of boundaries, but at the same time I think that roads, trains, planes, ships, phones, the internet all will create a more open?, uniform? - I don't know what word I am looking for - world view.

Ach, I'm getting myself confused now....

Over to you.
 
Wow...

I think I'll ignore my ravings of before and try to even come close to having some input on this Sci-fi discussion. This is VERY interesting. This is getting quite Cyber-punkish.

Here goes...

I think I would like to argue the fact of city's becoming "states" unto themselves for the vary fact of the supply chain discussion going on in the last few posts.

Unless you do go with Majoor's idea of smaller cities, the city as we know today would not be able to survive within their current hinterlands. The demands for food alone are far to great to be able to supply say Toronto with its immediate area of influence. The population would have to fall considerably in order for it to do so.

Which is why there is so much trade that comes from various "nation-states" as we know them today. Japan itself would never survive with its current population and only does because of massive importing of food and goods.

So I ask. How feasible is this idea of autonomous cities that only look to their "nation" for things like military protection?

I do agree though that, within Canada at least, the city is becoming a much more self-contained powerful entity and will in my mind eventually eclipse that of the need for provincial levels of government. They in essence will take over for that body politic.

 
rw4th said:
Ans how would you go about this?

Sorry have to go into this, as I also have a question to pose.

That is the reason for social programs. You know. Feed the poor, get them off the street, clean them up (drug rehab), teach them to take care of themselves and contribute to society by getting a job and trying to lead a "normal" life.

Brad Sallows said:
Punishment certainly decreases crime rates; at least, the Americans are blaming increased incarceration rates for corresponding crime rate reductions.  When the habitual criminals are behind bars they can't commit crimes.  That at least is straightforward.  If in BC we actually lock away the people committing the vast majority of auto thefts as they pop up to claim the title, auto theft will decrease.

So your going to lock up and throw away the key for "everyone" that commits a crime? And how are you going to pay for that? The US has more people in jail then all the other western nations combined (something over 2 million). Have they solved the crime issue?

I agree that a certain percentage of criminals who are deemed likely to commit another crime should be kept there. But the vast majority of criminals are either one time commiters (flare of anger, drunk and hit someone, etc.) or people who have a substance abuse problem that if treated properly and given the tools to get a job, just may do so. With proper programs in place, you can at least attempt to save some of them.

Brad Sallows said:
>Then why is it that the States have more police forces, more jails, more camera's to monitor the population, more fear, more information gathering on the individual, and more controls based on national security then any other western nation?

When I hear or see the phrase "police state", I think "Nazi Germany" or "Stalinist Russia" or "crappy little South American dictatorship", not "a country with a lot of police".  As for the rest, I haven't seen data to prove or disprove any of it.

Then I guess your "view" needs to be expanded a wee bit. I'm sure one of our Poli Sci profs here could give you the definition of a "police state" as being, a place where your increased need for police as a means of "control" is no longer just for perceived "protection" but is entering the realm of controlling the population. Now that control is simply by showing up. If you see a cop, you change your behavior. It also extends to more passive means of control. Ie. "we're watching you" camera's.

This leads me into my question.

I read on the missile defense thread (Majoor, your a major (;D) contributor over there) someone referring to our need to participate with the US on their free moving border programs. Now I'm not totally familiar with this, but if it entails them wanting finger prints, DNA, retinal scans, or any other type of ID that is above my name on a certified card, they can forget it. I'm hearing that they want to install such things at airports as well.

I don't know about you guys, but the whole individual's rights and freedoms thing doesn't extend to them having a piece of me and knowing exactly where I am at any given point in the day.

Doesn't it even cause a slight itch in your brain when they not only have camera's everywhere, and they want to install them in schools now. But they want to have our absolute ID (Finger prints, retinal scans, DNA) on file so that they know exactly we are who we are supposed to be.

On top of this, they can already track us by our spending habits (credit and debit cards), and that stupid On Star that tracks your car wherever you go. Little black boxes in your car that record your speed and distance traveled at any point in time.

Somehow this screams loss of individual freedoms to me. In fact it goes all the way to the idea of the mark of the beast from revelations. So it may come to surprise you that I am not totally for all means of the social system. These forms don't say "for the good of the whole" to me. They've gone beyond that point to that of "we want to know just what your doing".

Sigh...thus why I question much of the direction of the States. I see people's points that a total social system means totalilitarism. But I argue that on the other side of the coin, it can go the same way. With their drive for individual freedoms, they too are going down that very route in the name of "security or protecting our individual rights as a country" while at the same time taking more and more personal control away from the individual citizen. And their use of "fear of the bogyman" to do so has the people clammering to give up even more.

I see these things happening slowly in Canada. I see the need for camera's in stores and other places of business so that they can protect their stock. But to put them in schools, and on road sides, busy pedestrian corners, the general walking areas in malls, to monitor us at large (for our protection) just starts the whole itch again. The argument that they are there to help "protect us" and that we should give up a small amount of freedom for that just doesn't wash. Our crime rates have been pretty steady over the last few generations and violent crime has even fallen. So to use crime as an excuse is silly.

I don't know. Sorry for the rave. Just wouldn't mind one of the Prof's to input on this. Or is this to much sociology for you?

 
but if it entails them wanting finger prints, DNA, retinal scans, or any other type of ID that is above my name on a certified card, they can forget it. I'm hearing that they want to install such things at airports as well.

Already done -  been in place at Vancouver and Toronto (to my certain knowledge) for years.  Electronic palm prints and finger prints.  I signed up years ago when I was regularly crossing the border on business.  Much speedier access.  No grief.
 
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