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FORCE 2025: Informing the Army’s future structure

daftandbarmy

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There well may be some other things we should change in how things are done ..


This, times 1000 ;)

"If I hear one more reference to that fucking loser who wrote On Killing from a Fivehead Transportation Commander who failed CCC three times, I am going to drag each and every one of you with me down to hell."
 

GK .Dundas

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This, times 1000 ;)

"If I hear one more reference to that fucking loser who wrote On Killing from a Fivehead Transportation Commander who failed CCC three times, I am going to drag each and every one of you with me down to hell."
So Captain aside from that, how was your day ?
 

DBNSG

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Good2Golf

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Jaded for sure, but probably not too far off, with this…
This is some sort of lovecraftian paradox where doing something as simple as pretending to help unload a connex for 10 minutes, or just not being fat, earns you Dick Winters levels of praise, but two years spent trying to improve and fix systems for the betterment of your people and the mission is met with utter indifference and, usually, failure.
 

Skysix

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Never mind the incredibly high attrition rate of irreplaceable (during a war) high end assets like ships fighters and tanks, Force Projection will now require adequate Force Protection as those needs now will include commercial shipping, rail, and air supply from Canada to wherever, or even within Canada, as well as at-home armed protection (not an uparmed rent-a-cop but counter-SF level operators and emplaced air defense batteries) of critical manufacturing plants (artillery shells and UAS for example)

"A determined adversary might find that it is both easier and more effective to render U.S. Army units inoperable by destroying these vital logistics pipelines instead of targeting fighting units directly.

The future transparency of this expansive web of support should be nothing short of terrifying to U.S. military planners. The ability to achieve surprise, to protect one’s logistics, and to conceal the force from persistent detection is evaporating. These factors have staggering implications for future Army doctrine, organizations, and
platforms"

THEY should WE likely won't. Prove me wrong. Please.

(Time to upgrade and expand the Rangers into a real Territorial Defense Force?)
 

KevinB

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Never mind the incredibly high attrition rate of irreplaceable (during a war) high end assets like ships fighters and tanks, Force Projection will now require adequate Force Protection as those needs now will include commercial shipping, rail, and air supply from Canada to wherever, or even within Canada, as well as at-home armed protection (not an uparmed rent-a-cop but counter-SF level operators and emplaced air defense batteries) of critical manufacturing plants (artillery shells and UAS for example)

"A determined adversary might find that it is both easier and more effective to render U.S. Army units inoperable by destroying these vital logistics pipelines instead of targeting fighting units directly.

The future transparency of this expansive web of support should be nothing short of terrifying to U.S. military planners. The ability to achieve surprise, to protect one’s logistics, and to conceal the force from persistent detection is evaporating. These factors have staggering implications for future Army doctrine, organizations, and
platforms"

THEY should WE likely won't. Prove me wrong. Please.

(Time to upgrade and expand the Rangers into a real Territorial Defense Force?)
That is part of the current MDO doctrine and DHS mandate down here.
 

Skysix

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That is part of the current MDO doctrine and DHS mandate down here.
Don't get me started on DHS over-reach and actual vs intended vs desired vs needed capabilities.

They don't make rabbit holes that deep! 🤓😂
 

daftandbarmy

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Never mind the incredibly high attrition rate of irreplaceable (during a war) high end assets like ships fighters and tanks, Force Projection will now require adequate Force Protection as those needs now will include commercial shipping, rail, and air supply from Canada to wherever, or even within Canada, as well as at-home armed protection (not an uparmed rent-a-cop but counter-SF level operators and emplaced air defense batteries) of critical manufacturing plants (artillery shells and UAS for example)

Good old fashioned Infantry, alot of Infantry, is the best solution of course.

But the chances of standing up another 10 or 12 battalions - chump change in the great scheme of things - are ridiculously small I'm thinking.
 

Kirkhill

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Good old fashioned Infantry, alot of Infantry, is the best solution of course.

But the chances of standing up another 10 or 12 battalions - chump change in the great scheme of things - are ridiculously small I'm thinking.

I agree on the capital cost of the 10 or 12 battalions. But that represents a major opportunity cost in terms of lost manpower and a massive political cost.

Better to pay those 10 or 12 battalions to build smart motors.
 

Underway

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We appear to have a developing standard

Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia and now Slovakia. Switzerland is already a member of the club.

That's a different turret then the CV90 normally has. I wonder if its the Block IV version turret or something different. The competition results were relatively open source. CV90 actually failed an obstacle height test but did better than the Lynx on the shooting (mainly due to the Lynx not being able to rotate the turret unless the engine was on). I'll try to find the link and post it in Future Armour or something.
 

Kirkhill

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CV90 actually failed an obstacle height test but did better than the Lynx on the shooting (mainly due to the Lynx not being able to rotate the turret unless the engine was on).

The Sherman was sub-optimal in many areas. But it was made to work regardless. And it is apparently still in service today.

 

KevinB

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MkIV turret below 26657A2A-F766-4A63-AA71-76A72024ADE3.jpeg386D0A29-BB4D-4D45-8B75-12FD489EADD6.jpegE51F34B8-9522-482A-95DC-9858CE7F02C2.jpeg

It appears to me to be a modified turret for the Slovakian Military. It’s missing a few functions from the MkIV IFV standard turret.
 

KevinB

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I mean I’ve ridden in a Slovakian BVP2, anything would be an upgrade.
True - but I also noticed they said ‘illustration’ on the press release, and mentioned MkIV, so perhaps the article didn’t have access to MkIV images and dropped that in as a reasonable facsimile.
 

markppcli

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Interesting given thst they had spent money upgraded some BVP2s, I think mostly for recce ? How extensive it was I’m unsure.26BC32B1-E811-425A-96DE-BE3BBC61CC09.jpeg
 

Kirkhill

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The Alternative to the IFV strategy.

Boxers and Wiesels


The Boxer, as used by the Germans, is an armoured bus, a troop transporter for the dismount infantry. Its main armament is an RWS with either a 12.7mm HMG or a 40mm GMG. These are for close protection of the vehicle only.

The Battalion's heavy weapons are carried separately in the Wiesel. Many on this site have commented on the Wiesel before, a light, air and helitransportable tracked vehicle that carries a variety of weapons. The principal weapons pairing is a Wiesel with an ATGM (currently the venerable TOW) and another Wiesel with a dual feed 20 mm autocannon. The Wiesel is also used for a mounted 120mm mortar system, a light anti-aircraft system and assorted FOVs, CPs and sensors. These can accompany the troops on deployment by air even when their Boxers can't.

The 20mm/ATGM pairing deserves some further consideration.

The Javelin/NLAW ATGMs have been getting lots of good press in Ukraine but as the war drags on stocks are under stress. That has prompted the Ukrainians to build a 14.5 mm Anti-Materiel Rifle with a 2 km range to take the load off the ATGMs. In much the same way I fancy the 20mm takes the load off of the TOWs in the German Wiesels.


Given that NLAW weighs 12.5 kg, the Javelin weighs 22.3 kg and the Alligator AMR weighs 25 kg I can only think that those weapons would benefit from having weapons carriers to transport them. In which case why not the Wiesel?

Especially given that Rheinmetall has a new optionally manned version


This is based on the same technology as Rheinmetall's other autonomous systems.


1657129626920.png


Leave the IFVs to the RCAC and the Panzergrenadiers.

Buy ACSV TCVs for infantry transport and put the battalion weapons companies on board something that can be lifted by air in the same helicopters and aircraft as the rifles.
 

daftandbarmy

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The Alternative to the IFV strategy.

Boxers and Wiesels


The Boxer, as used by the Germans, is an armoured bus, a troop transporter for the dismount infantry. Its main armament is an RWS with either a 12.7mm HMG or a 40mm GMG. These are for close protection of the vehicle only.

The Battalion's heavy weapons are carried separately in the Wiesel. Many on this site have commented on the Wiesel before, a light, air and helitransportable tracked vehicle that carries a variety of weapons. The principal weapons pairing is a Wiesel with an ATGM (currently the venerable TOW) and another Wiesel with a dual feed 20 mm autocannon. The Wiesel is also used for a mounted 120mm mortar system, a light anti-aircraft system and assorted FOVs, CPs and sensors. These can accompany the troops on deployment by air even when their Boxers can't.

The 20mm/ATGM pairing deserves some further consideration.

The Javelin/NLAW ATGMs have been getting lots of good press in Ukraine but as the war drags on stocks are under stress. That has prompted the Ukrainians to build a 14.5 mm Anti-Materiel Rifle with a 2 km range to take the load off the ATGMs. In much the same way I fancy the 20mm takes the load off of the TOWs in the German Wiesels.

In case of a real war, break glass ;)

1657130580725.png


 
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