Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

[Remius]

Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.

Interesting.  So it would likely be the generic messes that would have issues.  My reserve unit would likely not suffer as most would want to contribute.  We also have a larger say on events, activities etc due to a smaller membership base than a larger organisation.

Also note: Reserve mandatory events are normally paid events.  But at my unit at least most people would still show up, most of our class b types do.  And there is a warn out system with proper justification in place.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Part of me wants to go the other way and pay for all of my uniforms.

The Pte's and OCdts in the world wouldn't thank you for suggesting that, especially when they are now forced to pay for rations at outrageous prices despite the mortgage, wife and 3 kids at home while they're getting thru basic and initial occupation training...

I have occasionally been spoken to for wearing nicer things.

???

 

[Lumber]

???

I was grilled by a Canex employee once for telling them that I would be using cufflinks that my parents had gotten me instead of the military ones you can buy at the Canex. It wasn't that she was upset I didn't want their product, she was legitimately angry that I was going to mix civilian cufflinks with my military dress (the cufflinks where platinum and gold "2Lt Slips On".)

 

[MJP]

I was grilled by a Canex employee once for telling them that I would be using cufflinks that my parents had gotten me instead of the military ones you can buy at the Canex. It wasn't that she was upset I didn't want their product, she was legitimately angry that I was going to mix civilian cufflinks with my military dress (the cufflinks where platinum and gold "2Lt Slips On".)

Don't cha know dependapotamus wear their SO's rank and know everything?    http://imgur.com/sSllUH5

 

[jollyjacktar]

It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not.

Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.

I think you'd find most sailors wouldn't have issue with the mess on ship.  After all we use it when we're away from home quite a bit.
That is, if the nanny state bullshit isn't still going on wrt beer etc.  I don't , however use the mess ashore and have no interest in doing so, for that matter.  I wouldn't shed a tear to keep my mess dues each month.

Messes like the one in Meaford would likely die.  Although recruits and candidates probably would feel pressured to pay.

Messes have a purpose.  But I can't argue with someone who does not want to partake one way or another in mess life.

That purpose is less of necessity nowadays.  The culture has changed.

The Jr ranks mess in Ottawa might die as well.  It's dead most nights and outside of Christmas events and other outside functions it isn't really that busy (by the membership in relation to the size of said population).  with the move to carling it is going to see even less use. 

Regimental messes both reserve and regular would likely survive as the membership still has some attachment to those places given the historical, traditional and regimental affiliations contained within (there will always be a few that would opt out).

The thing is, once you lose something it is very hard to get it back.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The Pte's and OCdts in the world wouldn't thank you for suggesting that, especially when they are now forced to pay for rations at outrageous prices despite the mortgage, wife and 3 kids at home while they're getting thru basic and initial occupation training...


???

I am pretty sure that if I was a Pte (again) or an OCdt (again), I still wouldn't think it possible - or even responsible - to try and support a spouse (which is what I assume you meant by "wife"), mortgage and 3 kids. 

I guess things must have changed since those days.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.

Are you referring to what used to be called the Fleet Clubs?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Are you referring to what used to be called the Fleet Clubs?

We still have Fleet Clubs.  But I was referring to all land based messes, not just those of the RCN.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am pretty sure that if I was a Pte (again) or an OCdt (again), I still wouldn't think it possible - or even responsible - to try and support a spouse (which is what I assume you meant by "wife"), mortgage and 3 kids. 

I guess things must have changed since those days.

Some applicants are coming from civilian jobs where they've already had a portion of 'adult life' take place, or they are CTs.  The younger 'typical' CFRC applicant may not always be in that situation, but some would be older and face this situation.  My thought about the Pte/OCdt with the mortgage, spouse/SO, and 3 kids relates back to a comment you'd made in a separate thread that made me realize not everyone is starting and ending their careers in the CAF:

If youth today plan on having 7 different careers in their life, let's figure out how to make 4 of them on the military

For some people, we may be their '1st, 2nd, and 3rd' careers.  For others, the CAF might be their '4th - 7th' ones.  Those folks are more likely to have the kids, mortgages, etc IMO. 

Agreed; spouse or significant other, is a better term. 

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Some applicants are coming from civilian jobs where they've already had a portion of 'adult life' take place, or they are CTs.  The younger 'typical' CFRC applicant may not always be in that situation, but some would be older and face this situation. 

We have students at our school that release for more than 5 years, then join back and are now Aviators. Another example, I have a student that was an MWO and VOT; he’s now a Cpl.

 

[CountDC]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's a rule, they're discussing the merits of that rule existing. If every problem encountered was responded with the circular reasoning that it exists because it says it needs to, we'd never adapt and progress.

But some are pointing the finger at the military for mess dues which when you read the follow on instead of just that one line my point is that the military only requires you to belong to the mess, not pay mess dues.  Payment of dues is the real complaint so pointing the finger in the right direction which is the mess and its membership that vote on the dues to be paid.

I have no issue with getting rid of the messes.  If it was not mandatory to belong to one I suspect that almost all of them outside the ships would disappear. I know I would be happy to keep my dues instead of support a place that gets used once a week for about an hour by a handful of people or better yet only used really by the associate members that pay a lot less into it.  lets make them self supporting businesses instead of paying dues. Swim or sink on their own just like any other bar in the area.

I know, we still need the facility for those mess dinners we get ordered to attend so must maintain a mess.  Not into those either so no issue.  One dinner a year, SAD, that gets held on the parade square is good enough. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Count] .  Payment of dues is the real complaint so pointing the finger in the right direction which is the mess and its membership that vote on the dues to be paid.[/QUOTE]

Anytime I've cleared into a base for a td task or course paying mess dues seems to be the second, if not first most important thing people care about. Complete with threats if we didn't pay.

I get reimbursed back at my home mess but training bases especially seem crazy about getting their money.

Membership may decide about mess dues but I doubt very much any CO will allow members to vote mess dues down to $0.

Am I wrong or does a reserve CO/base commander not have the capability to  take (or order) money from one mess be given to give to another mess to prevent one from going into the black budget wise?

 

[dapaterson]

I don't believe a CO has the authority to order transfers between messes - each has to stand on its own.  (Not to say it's never happened...)

I do think "The Mess" needs a rethink.  Back when the military was mostly single folks, what mess is and what a mess offers (a place to eat, drink and sleep) made some sense.  But with changing demographics, maybe the closest thing we have to a "modern mess" is the MFRC - a place where people come together for support.

Perhaps the vital ground of the mess is in creating a military community.  And if our demographics have changed, our community support structures need to change as well.  Convert the anteroom from a place to hold the silver and china into a daycare.  Turn the snakepit into a homework center.

Move our mindsets from cheap beer and oak panels to the broader military family.

 

[CountDC]

Anytime I've cleared into a base for a td task or course paying mess dues seems to be the second, if not first most important thing people care about. Complete with threats if we didn't pay.
Yep, been there plenty of times with that experience.  Still that mess has meetings and votes during the year just that most times us visitors are not able or willing to attend.

I get reimbursed back at my home mess but training bases especially seem crazy about getting their money.

Membership may decide about mess dues but I doubt very much any CO will allow members to vote mess dues down to $0.
Doubt it too but don't know of anyone trying it with a sound case showing that the mess could support itself without the dues.  It was brought up once at a meeting, I informed the mbr if they could put together a case I would present it the mess CO, that was the end of it.  They decided it wasn't worth the effort to save $20 a year. Still it is not a military regulation, it is the mess and it's CO.  Who knows, if you made a good enough case maybe it would happen.

Am I wrong or does a reserve CO/base commander not have the capability to  take (or order) money from one mess be given to give to another mess to prevent one from going into the black budget wise?
No they don't and now that PSP is doing the finances it won't happen.  Good thing too because I know of one case where the Sgt's&WO's mess was thousands in the red when audited.  Led to many changes happening.  That is when they found out a mess is not allowed to be in the red.  If you don't have money you can't spend money despite all the business majors constantly quoting the mantra of you have to spend money to make money

 

[Jarnhamar]

Neat, thanks for the correction.

 

[ballz]

Doubt it too but don't know of anyone trying it with a sound case showing that the mess could support itself without the dues.

That right there is the sound case... it couldn't.

You seem to be looking at this through rose-coloured glasses. Sure, we have an illusion of democracy in Mess committee's, but it doesn't matter if the entire committee was full of libertarians that decided we should butt out of member's lives, reduce dues to zero and work within the means that mess has through the support it gets voluntarily... the "illusion" part of that democracy would quickly rear it's ugly head.

This reminds me of all the BS involved with the current combatives grappling movement... "why do I even have to convince people that this is a good idea." Those in most of these leadership positions live in a very different reality. You have to have bought into the system to get there. It's a self-licking ice cream cone that perpetuates it's antiquated thinking, no matter how much they talk about various initiatives.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I seem to recall, during the '70s, we had the same discussion in Pet. I might be wrong in the location and time. The result was that, for a time, if you didn't want to pay mess dues you could give the same amount, through a pay assignment to a charity of your choice. The caveat was that you would attend Regimental gatherings, member or not. You received none of the member's perks, including Happy Hours, and payed non member entrance to any public events. I don't think it ever caught though. It was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

 

[Gunner98]

Move our mindsets from cheap beer and oak panels to the broader military family.

I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.  I find it hard to rationalize feeding spouses and children from mess dues of the officers.  I think messes should all be like the ones in Greenwood, all ranks in one building with separate bars and a common one.  The costs of building maintenance, utilities, furnishing and staffing for distinct messes should ancient history.  Sell off the surplus equipment and donate the memorabilia to museums or to unit lines.  The era of the Unit Stand Easy ended with the change in society's attitude to driving impaired.  The era of distinctive messes at a Base should end when there insufficient residents and bar sales to break even.  The Base budget should not support the maintenance of buildings that are not essential to the daily business of the Base's mandate.

Recent visitors from the Carling Campus (CFHS) in Ottawa to CFB Kingston opted for VIP quarters for their two-night stay, rather than staying at a local hotel.  They were surprised when the VIP quarters did not provide towels, soap/shampoo or even toilet paper.  How is that for cost-cutting, VIP services!

 

[Blackadder1916]

Recent visitors from the Carling Campus (CFHS) in Ottawa to CFB Kingston opted for VIP quarters for their two-night stay, rather than staying at a local hotel.  They were surprised when the VIP quarters did not provide towels, soap/shampoo or even toilet paper.  How is that for cost-cutting, VIP services!

Less thieving that way.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.  I find it hard to rationalize feeding spouses and children from mess dues of the officers.  I think messes should all be like the ones in Greenwood, all ranks in one building with separate bars and a common one.  The costs of building maintenance, utilities, furnishing and staffing for distinct messes should ancient history.  Sell off the surplus equipment and donate the memorabilia to museums or to unit lines.  The era of the Unit Stand Easy ended with the change in society's attitude to driving impaired.  The era of distinctive messes at a Base should end when there insufficient residents and bar sales to break even.  The Base budget should not support the maintenance of buildings that are not essential to the daily business of the Base's mandate.

Mess members money spend on families of other members.

Not as bad as a $10'000 four wheeler and $5000 big screen TV being given away at a Christmas party which I've seen but at least in that case it was for members only. Mind you just the ones who could show up.