Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]
- Thread starter KnuckleHead
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I really don't see people's issue with mess dinners. They are always a great time, if you let them be a great time. If you go to one with a bad attitude, it just drags everyone else down. What other job pays you to go to a dinner after work hours, gives you a shiny suit to wear and lets you party with your coworkers with some good food and free wine? I've even made gavel stealing a personal specialty/mission. I hope that doesn't have to stop when I'm a Snr NCO.
Haggis
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recceguy said:
LFCO 11-05 is only available on the DWAN. As it's unclassified, I've cut 'n pasted it below. Note the direction in para 7 that dapaterson referred to in reply 148. It only applies to members who are ordered to attend. So, as Middlemiss found out, you CAN be so ordered.
A DJA opinion from 2003 quoted the Mess and Institues policy which states: "Mess dinners provide an opportunity for mess members to meet on a formal but friendly occasion, allowing the senior member, or his guests to address the members as a group. By custom and tradition, which in the service context its an extension of the common law, mess dinners are considered to be a parade and as such attendance is compulsory except for members excused by the BComd, PMC or otherc onvening authority."
LFCO 11-05
APPROVING AUTHORITIES FOR OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTIONS
REFERENCES
A. A-PS-110-001/AG-002, Morale and Welfare Programs in the CF
B. NDHQ A/CLS 7335-1 (G1 Svcs) letter dated 14 January 2009
C. Financial Administration Manual Chapter 1017-1
APPLICABLE TO
1. Land Force Command (LFC) Areas, Formations, Base/ASUs, Training Centres, Bases and Units.
AIM
2. The aim of this order is to delegate the authority to unit Commanding Officers to authorize Official Mess Functions
DEFINITION OF AN OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTION
3. An official mess function is an activity such as a mess dinner or a military ceremonial event, which fulfills a public responsibility, contributes to the effective functioning of the CF, enhances unit cohesion or marks an event of military or national significance. A mess dinner may be held in conjunction with a training event or to commemorate of specific unit event such as the unit birthday or end of training year. A military ceremonial event may be such as a Change of Command parade, colours presentation or special unit anniversaries/landmark.
SUPPORT FOR OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTIONS
4. In accordance with reference A, chapter 5, section 2, paragraph 11, mess facilities may be used for mess dinners and military ceremonial events. Public support for authorized mess dinners and military ceremonial events will be IAW Table 5-2-1 of reference A. Mess dinners that are authorized for public support will normally be the responsibility of the Unit from their operating budgets.
5. Public support for authorized Military ceremonial events is in accordance with policies at reference A, chapter 3, section 2, paragraph 24. How to determine if an event can be publicly funded can be found at reference C, under the Provisions of Hospitality section.
AUTHORIZATION
6. In accordance with reference A, chapter 5, section 2, paragraph 13 and reference B, Unit Commanding Officers can authorize Official Mess Functions. Requests for Official Mess Functions not defined within reference A, chapter 3, section 2 are to be submitted to the Chief of Land Staff through the Chain of Command for approval.
7. A reservist ordered to attend an authorized Official Mess Function, is entitled to be paid for his attendance at the Class A rate of pay.
Lastly, in thier 1998 report: Moving Forward - A Strategic Plan for Quality of Life Improvements in the Canadian Forces, The Standing Committee on National Defence and Veteran's Affairs described and commented on how the Military Factor in our pay is arrived at and taken to be applied:
"THE MILITARY FACTOR
Part of the military pay package includes what is referred to as the Military Factor or the X-Factor. In 1974, the Military Factor was set at 4% of salary and was subdivided in 1981 into three distinct components that are still in effect today. The obligation to adhere to a military code of service discipline was set at 0.5% of salary. This adjustment was meant to compensate for the loss of freedom resulting from obligations such as the need for uniformity and compliance, and the absolute requirement to follow orders. Other elements are the frequent separations from families set at 1.5% of salary, and the family posting turbulence from relocations at 2%.
Needless to say, these valuations are highly subjective. However, given current realities, the separation from families factor and, in particular, the posting turbulence factor should be increased. These were stresses consistently mentioned during our hearings. But, as a Committee we do not believe we have the requisite expertise to determine exactly what the appropriate weighting should be. This is something we will need to leave in the hands of the Department. As well, given the changing nature of deployments and the increased risks this entails, other additional, or more appropriate, factors could be worked into the overall valuation of the Military Factor. We therefore recommend:
9. That the Department of National Defence immediately review the Military Factor to ensure that both the criteria and the values assigned properly reflect the uniqueness of military service and that the results be reviewed by SCONDVA on an annual basis."
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PuckChaser said:
I have always enjoyed myself at Mess Dinners. I have enjoyed the ones where I was waited upon, and the ones where I was a Server. We used to fight to be chosen to serve at Mess Dinners, yet another tradition that has seen an end.
The Mess and the fun that you have in it is made by you. If you want to have a good time in the Mess, strive to have a good time. If you want to see the Mess become a useless drain on your pocket book with no returns, then neglect it and don't participate. Your choice. Be a miserable miser, or have a good time and enjoy the interaction.
I'd like to ask Grunt225 if they enjoy going out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, or perhaps an evening of Karaoke?
Completely agree! Mess dinners are fun and a great way to learn to know those peers you may not know. I personnally believe that esprit de corps is one of the things that sets us apart from the civvy street and that it should be promoted.
As a Naval Officer, it seems to me that if you are eventually going to be stuck on a ship with 25 or so colleagues for 6 months, might as well learn to know them and, even better, to enjoy them.
As for the MIddlemiss CM, you will also note that the CO mentionned that CanDet was hosting US NORAD/NORTHCOM on that particular occasion. Therefore, it would have been rude for the CanDet, notably smaller than the guest organization, not to put out a good show. And, the severity of the judgement hinged strongly on the fact that he, as a junior leader in this unit, had to set the example. But I guess that is how the CF is nowadays, people are looking more into what they can get out of it than what they can put in...
As a Naval Officer, it seems to me that if you are eventually going to be stuck on a ship with 25 or so colleagues for 6 months, might as well learn to know them and, even better, to enjoy them.
As for the MIddlemiss CM, you will also note that the CO mentionned that CanDet was hosting US NORAD/NORTHCOM on that particular occasion. Therefore, it would have been rude for the CanDet, notably smaller than the guest organization, not to put out a good show. And, the severity of the judgement hinged strongly on the fact that he, as a junior leader in this unit, had to set the example. But I guess that is how the CF is nowadays, people are looking more into what they can get out of it than what they can put in...
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Ding, dingTimBit said:
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George Wallace said:
As a young Pte and Cpl I loved doing Mess dinners and as I moved up in rank was always a good time
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They can force you to go, if you want to refuse to pay. The JAG had a briefing note floating around CFSCE about mess dinners being part of military life and that reasonable costs are built into a catchall percentage of your pay to offset their cost.
Why is your unit making you spend your own dime on PD trips? You should be on TD if its out of town with rations and quarters plus transport.
Why is your unit making you spend your own dime on PD trips? You should be on TD if its out of town with rations and quarters plus transport.
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Good catch, mariomike.
Thread merge, mods?
Thread merge, mods?
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Done
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Eye In The Sky
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MisterE said:
gotcha
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Technically it's several guys; a mess dinner comming up required 7 or 8 seats. So they tapped several Sgts and said you will attenend and you will bring your spouse. With the cost for the dinner being $50 x2 + $50 (cab) + $40 (babysitter) = $190 is what it looks like he is going to have to pay for one night out. I can see where the regiment is coming from in an effort to raise esprit de corps, but I have never found forced fun to be very effective.
OldSolduer
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MisterE said:
I'd like to see the CWO who could tell my wife "you will attend". I've tried that with her and got told...in no uncertain terms.
"The Man" cannot order your spouse to attend. Member - yes. Mess Dinners are parades.
Eye In The Sky
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If spouses are attending, is it not really a "Mixed Dining In" vice "Mess Dinner"?
OldSolduer
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Eye In The Sky said:
You are quite correct. The rules change.
mariomike said:Reminds me of something I heard about making a marriage last. "Two times a week, we go to a nice restaurant, a little wine, good food..... She goes Tuesdays, I go Fridays."
;D
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