Forcing me to swtich from Navy Int op to army int op.

[George Wallace]

George it is environment specific for now. From CFSMI web site on the DWAN training goes ( I may be off a day or two ):

10 days distance learning
72 Core Training
43 Environment specific training

So, the Core, as well as the Environmental, portions have, more or less, doubled in length.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Having read the thread, I have one question.  What is the reference that states what the CF policy is surrounding this?  There must be a DAOD, CFAO, etc on this, authorizing it, if they are doing it.

I am split in the middle on it.  If the CT offer said "this MOC, this DEU" and the mbr accepted that, I think the mbr is in his/her rights to want to retain that DEU.

However the mbr, even though in Navy DEU, can and should be expected to be posted anywhere mbr's in his/her MOCs is employable.

I've yet to see it confirmed the CF does/does not have the ability to do this, as in no one is backing up their stance with a reference.

To the OP;  submit a memo requesting the reference where it clearly states the CF can do this.  Last resort would be to file a Grievance.  Make sure you pick a good Assisting Member.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

From the monograph on the recruiting website:

Training     


Successful candidates will attend QL5A. Those who do not have a minimum English language proficiency of BBB will require language training prior to the QL5A.


Basic Qualification

Successful applicants will be sent to the Canadian Forces School of Military Intelligence (CFSMI), located at Canadian Forces Base Kingston, to attend QL5A core phase of training. In consultation with CFSMI and the Intelligence Branch, INT OPs will determine during this phase what environmental sub-occupation best meets the needs of the Intelligence Branch and their own. After completing the core phase and cross-environmental training, INT OPs will be trained according to their assigned environment.

Advanced Qualifications

The QL6A course is a pre-requisite for promotion to Sergeant/Petty Officer 2nd Class. Like the QL5A, the QL6A course contains a core and cross-environmental training followed by an environment-specific phase. INT OPs in need of training in another environment will be considered on a case-by-case basis.


My take on this is that even though you requested Navy Int Op, the CFSMI and the Branch have already decided that Army Int Op would be better since you are already coming from a Combat Arms background.

 

[holmessean]

Having read the thread, I have one question.  What is the reference that states what the CF policy is surrounding this?  There must be a DAOD, CFAO, etc on this, authorizing it, if they are doing it.

I am split in the middle on it.  If the CT offer said "this MOC, this DEU" and the mbr accepted that, I think the mbr is in his/her rights to want to retain that DEU.

However the mbr, even though in Navy DEU, can and should be expected to be posted anywhere mbr's in his/her MOCs is employable.

I've yet to see it confirmed the CF does/does not have the ability to do this, as in no one is backing up their stance with a reference.

To the OP;  submit a memo requesting the reference where it clearly states the CF can do this.  Last resort would be to file a Grievance.  Make sure you pick a good Assisting Member.

Actually navy int ops are no longer employable where army int ops are employable and vice versa now. There are navy int ops in 2EW however they completed thier course 2003 or before when it was still by defination a "purple" trade. The courses are no longer run with army, navy, air all on the same course anymore. I will be put on an army course if I'm army and navy course if I'm navy, and if I complete the navy course I will be posted to a coast or possibly Ottawa. Now on my offer letter it CLEARLY stated Int Op SEA and on my posting message it clearly stated Int Op SEA, which means I will wear a Navy uniform and complete the NAVY course. That is what I signed for, and if it waspossible for me to be swtiched I should have been informed BEFORE I signed it! Int Op SEA was my TOS and not ARMY. It seems pretty clear that the line of thinking was to get this guy in and then switch him to Army, as I was told I my career manager was swtiching me to army the day I arrived in Kingston.

 

[PMedMoe]

IMHO, it would seem you have a valid issue for grievance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

IMHO, it would seem you have a valid issue for grievance.

Agreed.  (based on the assumption that the info provided is correct and current.  I can not confirm that it is.)

First question...did you recieve a memo or msg stating you are changing DEU/environment or was it done verbally?  If verbally, ask for it in writing is my first thought.

Now I know a bunch of people will say "oh don't do that" but my advice is to request (first verbally, and then if 'no dice' in a memo), the reference to the CF policy that states the CF can do that (do not make it "the Career Manager", as he/she doesn't own the CF policy, so don't direct it at anyone person, keep it to "the CF" type wording).

This will do a few things:

1.  start a paper trail;
2.  it may solve the problem, as your CoC may see there is no grounds for them to do this and stop it;
3.  you may find out that the CF IS authorized to do this which would stop you from making an arse out of yourself;
4.  you may find out the CF is NOT supposed to be doing this, but moving forward with it, and then, if you want, you can request a sit-down with your CoC to present your case verbally.  If that goes no where, you have the option of a grievance.
5.  your paper trail of supporting documents will begin with your CT offer message and the *contract* you signed the day of your CT, and I strongly recommend you pick a good Assisting Member who knows the paperwork side to help you put your grievance into the proper format.  In your grievnace, you will have to name SPECIFIC outcomes you are requesting, so make sure you consider those carefully if it comes to that point.

The overall point here is, you are looking initially to see if there is a policy stating clearly they can/can not do this.  Simple.

Just because the "Career Manager" says so does NOT make it golden.  The CF policy governs, and the CM is bound to that, like every other member of the CF.

 

[George Wallace]

.......... The courses are no longer run with army, navy, air all on the same course anymore. I will be put on an army course if I'm army and navy course if I'm navy, ............

You are wrong.  If you look up above, you will see that the Distant Learning portion is 10 days and the CORE is 72 days.  All INT OPs in training will do these crses.  It is only the last portion, the Environmental that is divided down to Elements.  In the Crse of the Training, the Branch will decide where it wants to place its emphasis on what Element. 

.......... Now on my offer letter it CLEARLY stated Int Op SEA and on my posting message it clearly stated Int Op SEA, which means I will wear a Navy uniform and complete the NAVY course. That is what I signed for, and if it waspossible for me to be swtiched I should have been informed BEFORE I signed it! Int Op SEA was my TOS and not ARMY. It seems pretty clear that the line of thinking was to get this guy in and then switch him to Army, as I was told I my career manager was swtiching me to army the day I arrived in Kingston.

Did you bother to ask, when you signed?  And if so, did you get the answer in writing? 

I'm sorry, but obviously you don't yet understand that the CF will place you where they need you the most.

As is, and as you are not yet on Crse, you are about to find that the QL5A has drastically changed.  Along with that, are other changes.  You have been caught up in "bad timing". 

As for all the "Barrackroom Lawyers" giving advice, I would advise you to think very carefully about what they say.  It may just alienate you from the Branch and end up with nothing but negative results; not in your favour.  As a CT into a very small Trade, you do not want to burn any bridges before they have been built.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

As for all the "Barrackroom Lawyers" giving advice, I would advise you to think very carefully about what they say.  It may just alienate you from the Branch and end up with nothing but negative results; not in your favour.  As a CT into a very small Trade, you do not want to burn any bridges before they have been built.

I hope you are including yourself in that 'barrackroom lawyer' group.  I've yet to see you (or anyone else, for that matter) produce an actual CF policy reference, which certainly would help to clear this one up and put it to bed now, wouldn't it.  The point?  Without a reference as that says "the CF can switch your DEU" or vice versa, this debat of opinions can go on for pages.

It seems that if someone says something to the contrary of your advice, they are 'barrackroom laywers'.  My advice is find out what the policy says.  Simple.  Once he/she finds out the official CF policy, they can then decide what to do, or how far they want to take it. 

I've presented (some) of the options available based on the OP believing the CF is wronging them, and in a manner where they MAY resolve their own questions if their MCpl/Sgt were to show them on paper the CF policy or directive or whatever.  Why would I do that?  Because it falls in the "lowest level possible" catagory, and it may very well answer the OPs question/problem/concern.

I fail to see how that is not good advice.

I agree on the point, somewhat, about the "making a name for yourself in the branch' idea, as much as that crap irks the sh*t out of me.

 

[medaid]

INT is one Trade.  The Navy guys can also confirm another point..........There is no Navy INT OP.  There are Navy INT O's.  There are NESOPs and NAVCOMs, both of which are different Trades from INT.

I can confirm that. There are no Navy INT OPs.

 

[Sig_Des]

the reference to the CF policy that states the CF can do that (do not make it "the Career Manager"

Could perhaps CFAO 11-12 apply?

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp

TYPES OF OCCUPATION TRANSFERS3.    OTs are categorized as:  Compulsory, Voluntary, MOC Reassignments and
Career Progression Occupation Transfers.
4.    Compulsory.  This category refers to cases where members must leave
their current MOC because of:
    a.  deletion of a MOC;

    b.  changes in the establishment requirements of the Canadian Forces
          (CF);
    c.  Career Medical Review Board (CMRB) decisions in accordance with
          34-26;

    d.  Career Review Board (CRB) decisions in accordance with 49-4;
          or

    e.  other reasons as determined by NDHQ/DGPCOR (Director General
          Personnel Careers Other Ranks).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

BW7,

I looked thru that one too but...the mbr is not being told he/she is changing MOCs (will still be an Int Op)...

I looked thru ADM (HR-MIL) 05/05 as I was sure it would be there but...eitehr I didn't see it or its not there.

 

[Sig_Des]

Well, looking in CFPAS, seemed that all the INT OP MOSIDs were the same, just different sub-category....so technically, they're not changing his occupation, so they could use that reasoning that they are not actually changing his MOS, just his element. Which is something we've seen in other trades.

 

[PMedMoe]

I found this under the same CFAO (emphasis mine):

CF ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORMS22.    Members may indicate their preference for environmental uniform
assignment at Part 1 of the application form when seeking voluntary OT to
MOCs accoutered in more than one environmental uniform.  Environmental
uniform assignment will be actioned by the applicable CM based upon the
member's previous service, employment history, the required long range
proportional distribution of the MOC, and the member's preference.  When a
change of environmental uniform results, a new uniform shall be issued at
public expense and the member is entitled to wear it effective the date of
OT.

I think the real issue at hand is that the OP signed a contract/TOS stating their environment would be Navy and that is no longer the case.

Info here may apply.

 

[Sig_Des]

I found this under the same CFAO (emphasis mine):

I think the real issue at hand is that the OP signed a contract/TOS stating their environment would be Navy and that is no longer the case.

I can understand the frustration, but that CFAO seems clear. Your job isn't based on Environment, but on MOC/MOSID, and his isn't changing.

However, your Ref does give the CM the Authority.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, looking in CFPAS, seemed that all the INT OP MOSIDs were the same, just different sub-category....so technically, they're not changing his occupation, so they could use that reasoning that they are not actually changing his MOS, just his element. Which is something we've seen in other trades.

Yes and, most people don't seem to have an issue with it once they wrap their head around the "purple" concept.

To compare it to something in our world, its like someone being told they are CTing to ATIS Tech, then getting to CFSCE and told they are now an LCIS Tech.  Sorta.

I think the real issue at hand is that the OP signed a contract/TOS stating their environment would be Navy and that is no longer the case.

Yes, and I am wondering about the process now between CFRG and DMCARM, does the CM shop see the offer before it goes out?  You'd almost believe like the offer was made, then the CM shop went "dammit!" and changed it to fill his/her actual requirements.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time that the left hand had no idea what the right hand was doing...

 

[Sig_Des]

To compare it to something in our world, its like someone being told they are CTing to ATIS Tech, then getting to CFSCE and told they are now an LCIS Tech.  Sorta.

I dunno, I see it more being like the new trade. Join as a CIST-LINEMAN, and CM says, nope, now you're a CIST-IS OP. Same MOSID, different sub-category. Which I can absolutely see happening.

Never hurts to exhaust all lines of questioning, but in the end, I see it being, this is what you're gonna be.

 

[twistedcables]

INT O's serve where they are told to serve.  This is the Canadian Forces not Navy forces or Air forces or Army forces.

 

[medaid]

I stil think this is quite drawn out considering there IS no Navy Int OP MOC!the only INT the Navy has are Int Os.

MAYBE, just MAYBE that they finally realised that they made a mistake. A BIG boo boo, and fixed it. Realising that *gasp* Int OP (N) does not exist, well what do we do? Well Int OP (Army) exists, let's give him THAT instead!

 

[ltmaverick25]

I am still of the opinion that this member has gotten screwed.  I do not buy into this BS that you go where you are told ect...  When we all chose our trades, we have some reasonable idea as to where in Canada that may place us and what our jobs overseas entail.  What some of you fail to realize is that this member, and the rest of us, and everyone else for that matter has a life outside of the military and that IS important to them, justifiably so.  The original poster seems to be very concerned about where he is posted because he states repeatedly Navy Int Ops are usually on a coast or in Ottawa, I dont know if that is true or not, but if it is, becoming an Army Int Op could screw up whatever plans he may have had.

This is not the CF of the 1950s anymore folks.  We are becoming a victim of our own recruiting success.  What I mean by this is that we are recruiting members who are increasingly more educated, dynamic and intelligent then ever before which I think is great.  But that also means that these same recruits are also VERY employable elsewhere and if we do not make resonable, and the operative word here is resonable, efforts to keep our people happy we are going to lose them.  Nobody wants to be miserable for the rest of their life doing a job they dont want to do.  The great thing about the CF is you get to chose what job you are applying for and accepting.  There is obviously some grey area in the case of Int Ops and in my opinion unacceptable grey area that needs to be sorted out.

As in many cases this becomes a leadership issue.  The whole idea of a member signing on as an Int Op and then the branch deciding during your training what element you will serve in sounds alot to me like the higher ups dont have their shit together and as a result need to make last minute decisions about where to put people.

Either way, I think the advise to create a paper trail is good advice.  Were not talking about the member behaving inapropriately or unprofessionally, were talking about him taking legitimate steps to bring his concerns to a resulotion.  George is right to a certain extent, the Int world is a small world and burning bridges is a bad idea, but I dont see this as burning bridges.  The other side of the coin is that because its a small world, people will know who can perform and who cannot perform.  Make sure you are one of those that can perform and that will demand respect regardless of what your favorite colour happens to be.

Either way though, at the end of the day there are worse things then being an Army Int Op, it is not a bad job.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I stil think this is quite drawn out considering there IS no Navy Int OP MOC!the only INT the Navy has are Int Os.

MAYBE, just MAYBE that they finally realised that they made a mistake. A BIG boo boo, and fixed it. Realising that *gasp* Int OP (N) does not exist, well what do we do? Well Int OP (Army) exists, let's give him THAT instead!

Int Op Army does not exist either actually.  The only thing that does exist is Int Op.  Even on the recruiting that is all it says.

But you are right, its possible he is still going to get his element, maybe they just changed the paper around.  It will be much better when stupid mistakes like this stop being made.