Future Helicopters

[Good2Golf]

Enterprise is a great thing.

The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.

Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19 .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept…

 

[Kirkhill]

Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19/A .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept…

All they needed to do next was head down to Radio Shack and by an RC kit, some servo motors and solenoids and they could ditch the crew as well.

2050.0US $ |Advance Sale 800 Size Airwolf Black Fuselage Helicopter & Mechanik Conversion Kit - Rc Helicopters - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Then Kevin and his neat kit could ride in splendid isolation, unbothered by all that chatter from the front seats.

 

[KevinB]

Enterprise is a great thing.

The Helicopter.

A powerpack with stuff bolted on.

The scares the bejesus out of me
It appears they have mounted a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon on that - and I can only imagine the damage to the airframe that will create.

-- the USMC literally ruined their UH-1N's with the M3 .50 (GAU-21) - as the airframe didn't react well to the recoil - and have since opted to keep that on the 53's and mostly go to 7.62 Miniguns on the Huey's -

The GAU-19 or Dillions lighter 503D seem to do better than the 21's - but I've only fired one of those on a GMVW -

Rockets and Missiles are significantly better tools for attack roles than a 25mm - and don't cause airframe damage - plus knowing what the recoil does to a LAV and Bradley - I can only wonder how a pilot could manage to keep that in the air -

 

[KevinB]

Looks like some industrious staff officers got a hold of some MOTS hardware from…CFD (the ‘plank’), GDAS (GAU-19 .50 Vulcan) and LMCO (AGM-114 Hellfire) to make a static proof of concept system-of-systems. They probably had the numbers worked out with BHTC to confirm the viability of the concept…

Uhm - look at the M242 25mm Bushmaster Cannon...

 

[Kirkhill]

The scares the bejesus out of me
It appears they have mounted a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon on that - and I can only imagine the damage to the airframe that will create.

-- the USMC literally ruined their UH-1N's with the M3 .50 (GAU-21) - as the airframe didn't react well to the recoil - and have since opted to keep that on the 53's and mostly go to 7.62 Miniguns on the Huey's -

The GAU-19 or Dillions lighter 503D seem to do better than the 21's - but I've only fired one of those on a GMVW -

Rockets and Missiles are significantly better tools for attack roles than a 25mm - and don't cause airframe damage - plus knowing what the recoil does to a LAV and Bradley - I can only wonder how a pilot could manage to keep that in the air -

I seem to recall a contributor called Loachman making as similar comment about the Minitat mounted on his Kiowa.

But Kev you are looking for the flyshit and ignoring the pepper.

Sure the collection of gear may be sub-optimal. So choose another toy instead. There's lots available. And it is easy to do.

 

[KevinB]

I seem to recall a contributor called Loachman making as similar comment about the Minitat mounted on his Kiowa.

But Kev you are looking for the flyshit and ignoring the pepper.

Sure the collection of gear may be sub-optimal. So choose another toy instead. There's lots available. And it is easy to do.

The Griffon isn't a gunship.
It's a Bell 412 - it isn't hardened against enemy fire, or have multiple redundant systems as backups.

While I am impressed with the attempt to make a RCAF AH - I believe work could be better spent writing an actual requirement - with justifications that the Griffon isn't the appropriate platform, and showing both an operational and doctrinal need for a real escort AH, as well as support AH for other TacHel operations.

I'm not even a fan of the MH-60 DAP's - and I put the Little Bird into the wannabe AH category too - (and I love the LB's)

At some point in time you need to accept the fact that you really cannot make an AH out of a commercial helicopter.

 

[Kirkhill]

And as for air frame stresses?

6 pdr / 57 mm anti-tank gun in a plywood aircraft built by piano makers.

DeHavilland Mosquito FB Mk XVIII "Tsetse"

Cannon Fighter-Bomber: Mosquito with 57mm Autocannon [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M00f5RxhxLY[/media]The Molins Gun in the de Havilland MosquitoTHE AIRCRAFT GUN......The RAF then became interested in fitting the Molins Gun in the de Havilland Mosquito, to ...

forum.warthunder.com

Or even

Enterprising Staff Officers.

To their good health! Slainte!

 

[Kirkhill]

The Griffon isn't a gunship.
It's a Bell 412 - it isn't hardened against enemy fire, or have multiple redundant systems as backups.

While I am impressed with the attempt to make a RCAF AH - I believe work could be better spent writing an actual requirement - with justifications that the Griffon isn't the appropriate platform, and showing both an operational and doctrinal need for a real escort AH, as well as support AH for other TacHel operations.

I'm not even a fan of the MH-60 DAP's - and I put the Little Bird into the wannabe AH category too - (and I love the LB's)

At some point in time you need to accept the fact that you really cannot make an AH out of a commercial helicopter.

Why do I need to harden the vehicle if it has no crew? Why do I need redundancy, and the associated weight, if it is cheap enough that I can afford to build two very light machines?

Just take the existing Griffons, like the US took the existing Kiowas, remove the pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and gunner, unbolt the armoured seats, remove the redundant systems and add a PLC some servo-motors and solenoids and a couple of cameras.

Who cares if the gun shakes the life out of the air frame. If you can get 5 missions out of it before spending the next couple of million, so what?

 

[Dana381]

This gets my vote for Ground support aircraft, I am not a soldier and it may not be the best for us but it is one BADASS plane!!!

 

[KevinB]

Why do I need to harden the vehicle if it has no crew? Why do I need redundancy, and the associated weight, if it is cheap enough that I can afford to build two very light machines?

Because you don't want it knocked out before it gets to its mission.

Just take the existing Griffons, like the US took the existing Kiowas, remove the pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and gunner, unbolt the armoured seats, remove the redundant systems and add a PLC some servo-motors and solenoids and a couple of cameras.

Where then does Canada have TacHel mobility from?

Who cares if the gun shakes the life out of the air frame. If you can get 5 missions out of it before spending the next couple of million so what?

I can do the same thing with a few hundred dollar drone and a RC Claymore mine as payload.

 

[KevinB]

This gets my vote for Ground support aircraft, I am not a soldier and it may not be the best for us but it is one BADASS plane!!!

It is a fantastic support AC for COIN/OOTW in the night time -- they don't fly during daylight though.

 

[KevinB]

And as for air frame stresses?

6 pdr / 57 mm anti-tank gun in a plywood aircraft built by piano makers.

Planes don't equate to Helicopters @Good2Golf can explain them much better than I.
But a forward facing gun in an aircraft is directing its energy rearward agains the aircraft thrust - and can be affixed to the fuselage in a manner to spread out the load.
It is still significant thought - look at an A10 on a firing run - it causes massive decreases in airspeed

The Herc is a pretty large platform - apparently use of the 105mm still does cause issues over time.

I've been on MH-60's with the 7.62 M-134 Miniguns are cooking away - you know it - and I've been close enough to USMC N's with the M3 to see how it affects the airframe (they only mounted it on one side - so the pilot does lazy banked circles - and the recoil forces push "up").

 

[Kirkhill]

Because you don't want it knocked out before it gets to its mission.


Where then does Canada have TacHel mobility from?


I can do the same thing with a few hundred dollar drone and a RC Claymore mine as payload.

Follow a Chinese lead.

China shows off drones recycled from Soviet-era fighter jets

China has for the first time showed off retired 1950s era fighter jets that have been converted to unmanned drones, with satellite photos of two of its east coast bases near Taiwan showing a large number of the jets on site.

www.defensenews.com

Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.

 

[Dana381]

Follow a Chinese lead.

China shows off drones recycled from Soviet-era fighter jets

China has for the first time showed off retired 1950s era fighter jets that have been converted to unmanned drones, with satellite photos of two of its east coast bases near Taiwan showing a large number of the jets on site.

www.defensenews.com

Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.

That makes too much sense, we NEED a clean sheet design rotary wing UAV with all the latest tech and sensors to protect it from ever getting a scratch.

 

[dimsum]

I'm not even a fan of the MH-60 DAP's

 

[Good2Golf]

Uhm - look at the M242 25mm Bushmaster Cannon...

I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19.

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.

 

[Kirkhill]

I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19.

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.

Still looking for the photo. But came across this thread.

The Canadian Armed Forces in RD - Page 71 - Eugen Systems Forums

Eugen Systems official forums

forums.eugensystems.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Follow a Chinese lead.

China shows off drones recycled from Soviet-era fighter jets

China has for the first time showed off retired 1950s era fighter jets that have been converted to unmanned drones, with satellite photos of two of its east coast bases near Taiwan showing a large number of the jets on site.

www.defensenews.com

Have Bell Textron churn out the cheapest, least survivable Griffon they can in large numbers.
Issue them to the existing TACHEL and CSS Squadrons.
Use them as utility transports until they are down to their last 100 hours of flying time.
Stick a plank and a PLC in them and mount whatever toys you like. Fill them with claymores if you think that would be a good thing.

Buy lots more cheap, disposable, attritable Griffons.

And buy a few expensive, hardened to within an ounce of their MTOW, aircraft as Command ships and as troop carrying assault craft.

Cats can be skinned many ways.

Further to this silliness.

Type	Origin	Class	Role	Introduced	In service	Total	Notes
AgustaWestland CH-149 Cormorant	Italy/UK	Helicopter	Search and Rescue (SAR)	2000	14	15	An order for 50 EH-101 Merlin helicopters to serve in the anti-submarine role replacing CH-113 Labrador was cancelled in 1993. Nine VH-71 Kestrels were bought from the US in 2011 to be used for spare parts.[2] As of 2019, at least two additional Cormorants were to be purchased and the remaining 14 modernized,[3] but plan was delayed as of July 2021, as "unaffordable".[4]
Airbus CC-150 & CC-150T Polaris	France	Jet	Transport/tanker	1992	5	5	8 Wing Trenton - 2 transport; 2 tanker; 1 VIP
Airbus CC-295 Kingfisher	Spain	Propeller	Search and rescue aircraft	2019	3	16	Greenwood, Nova Scotia; Trenton, Ontario; Winnipeg, Manitoba and Comox, British Columbia (418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron). The aircraft will be primarily operated at CFB Comox, where Airbus is building an RCAF Search & Rescue Training Facility for the CC-295
BAe CT-155 Hawk	UK	Jet	Trainer	2000	16	22	22 delivered to 419 sqn and 2 CFFTS[5]
Bell CH-139 Jet Ranger	US	Helicopter	Trainer	1982	13[6]	13	On contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers.
Bell CH-146 Griffon	Canada	Helicopter	Transport/SAR	1995	85[7]	100	15 SAR and 85 tactical helicopters. Eight armed in 2009 to escort CH-147 Chinooks in Afghanistan. 9 B412CF Outlaw on contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers
Boeing CC-177 Globemaster	US	Jet	Transport	2007	5	5	At 8 Wing Trenton[8][9] Replaced contracted aircraft or assistance from allies.
Boeing CH-147F Chinook	US	Helicopter	Transport	2013	15		Previous D-model variants no longer in service.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
Bombardier CC-144 Challenger	Canada	Jet	Transport	1982/2002/2020	4	4	412(T) Sqn under 8 Wing Trenton, stationed at Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport. VIP and medevac transport.
Canadair CT-114 Tutor	Canada	Jet	Air demonstration	1962	26[16]	26	24 used by "The Snowbirds"; replacement expected by 2020[17] (since delayed beyond 2021).
de Havilland Canada CC-115 Buffalo	Canada	Propeller	SAR	1967	6		442 Sqn 19 Wing Comox. To be retired and replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295)[18]
de Havilland Canada CC-138 Twin Otter	Canada	Propeller	Transport/SAR	1970s	4		440 Sqn Yellowknife attached to 17 Wing, Winnipeg.
de Havilland Canada CT-142	Canada	Propeller	Trainer	1987	4		402 Sqn 17 Wing, Winnipeg
Lockheed CC-130 Hercules	US	Propeller	Tanker/SAR	1964[19]	12		8 Wing Trenton, 14 Wing Greenwood and 17 Wing Winnipeg.[20] 4 equipped for aerial refueling (CC-130HT, modified CC-130H); 8 SAR aircraft to be replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295) from 2018-2022[18]
Lockheed CP-140M Aurora	US	Propeller	Maritime patrol/ASW/SAR	1980	14	18[21]	14 being modernized and retained in operational status. 14 Wing Greenwood and 19 Wing Comox.
Lockheed CP-140A Arcturus	US	Propeller	Trainer/Maritime reconnaissance/SAR	1991	1	3	404 Sqn 14 Wing Greenwood.[22]
Lockheed Martin CC-130J Super Hercules	US	Propeller	Transport	2010	17	17	Replaced Lockheed CC-130 transport variants.
McDonnell Douglas CF-188A & B	US	Jet	Fighter/attack	1982	76 [23]	138	98 A and 40 B models originally acquired. 20 lost to accidents, 41 retired. 3 Wing Bagotville and 4 Wing Cold Lake.[notes 1][24] 18 ex-Royal Australian Air Force F-18s being delivered as an interim measure, increasing the fighter fleet to 94 CF-18/F-18A aircraft.[25]
Beechcraft CT-156 Harvard II	US	Propeller	Trainer	2000	24	26	24 leased in 2000, 2 added in 2002.[26] Two lost in crashes.[27][28]
Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone	US	Helicopter	ASW	2015	23[29]	28	Replaced CH-124 [30] 23 helicopters in service as of May 2021.[29] One airframe (Stalker-22) lost to crash on operations.[31]
IAI CU-170 Heron	Canada	UAV	Surveillance and target acquisition	2011	2	3
UMS CU-176 Gargoyle	Canada	UAV	Surveillance and target acquisition	2020

How many of those aircraft could be converted to "Optionally Manned" configurations?

Starting with the small stuff?

24x Harvard IIs? 26x Tutors? 16x Hawks? = 66 Fixed Wing

13x Jet Rangers? 100x Griffons? = 113 Rotary Wing

Autopilot + PLC + Smartphone + Servomotors + Solenoids? + FireScout and Loyal Wingman software licences?

179 Close Support UAVs that can also be used as Utility Trainers until they run down their clocks.

And, extending the thought further

84 to 156x Hornets = 84 to 156x Loyal Wingmen?

What does that do to the F-35 calculus? How many do we need to buy? How soon? And at what rate?

We need the F-35 but do we need 84 right away? Or do we need 4 squadrons of 10 immediately and an ongoing delivery? Continuous trickle of replacements? Or a couple of batches of 20 after 7 and 15 years?

We've already done it. Converting old fighters into drones. For target practice and as radar targets.

What does the used aircraft availability look like?

PS - ignore the guy in the cockpit. Surplus to requirement.

 

[Kirkhill]

I hear tell that CFD’s LR-30 (1:06 onwards) is a much better large calibre option than the M242. I think @Kirkhill may be able to dig up the photo of an LR-30 on a Griffon in place of the GAU-19.

The GAU-19 is a beast, especially on high rate…and a better option for the airframe than the GAU-21 (M3M), IMO. Its recoil forces transmit through the OMS plank directly into the main structural longerons/stringers, as opposed to angularly through the DAS lugs which introduces tremendous torque moments with little dampening, which is where the Marines’ -1Ns had all the damage.

This? Green. 401. At 1:34.

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to this silliness.

Type	Origin	Class	Role	Introduced	In service	Total	Notes
AgustaWestland CH-149 Cormorant	Italy/UK	Helicopter	Search and Rescue (SAR)	2000	14	15	An order for 50 EH-101 Merlin helicopters to serve in the anti-submarine role replacing CH-113 Labrador was cancelled in 1993. Nine VH-71 Kestrels were bought from the US in 2011 to be used for spare parts.[2] As of 2019, at least two additional Cormorants were to be purchased and the remaining 14 modernized,[3] but plan was delayed as of July 2021, as "unaffordable".[4]
Airbus CC-150 & CC-150T Polaris	France	Jet	Transport/tanker	1992	5	5	8 Wing Trenton - 2 transport; 2 tanker; 1 VIP
Airbus CC-295 Kingfisher	Spain	Propeller	Search and rescue aircraft	2019	3	16	Greenwood, Nova Scotia; Trenton, Ontario; Winnipeg, Manitoba and Comox, British Columbia (418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron). The aircraft will be primarily operated at CFB Comox, where Airbus is building an RCAF Search & Rescue Training Facility for the CC-295
BAe CT-155 Hawk	UK	Jet	Trainer	2000	16	22	22 delivered to 419 sqn and 2 CFFTS[5]
Bell CH-139 Jet Ranger	US	Helicopter	Trainer	1982	13[6]	13	On contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers.
Bell CH-146 Griffon	Canada	Helicopter	Transport/SAR	1995	85[7]	100	15 SAR and 85 tactical helicopters. Eight armed in 2009 to escort CH-147 Chinooks in Afghanistan. 9 B412CF Outlaw on contract from KF Defence Programs as trainers
Boeing CC-177 Globemaster	US	Jet	Transport	2007	5	5	At 8 Wing Trenton[8][9] Replaced contracted aircraft or assistance from allies.
Boeing CH-147F Chinook	US	Helicopter	Transport	2013	15		Previous D-model variants no longer in service.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
Bombardier CC-144 Challenger	Canada	Jet	Transport	1982/2002/2020	4	4	412(T) Sqn under 8 Wing Trenton, stationed at Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport. VIP and medevac transport.
Canadair CT-114 Tutor	Canada	Jet	Air demonstration	1962	26[16]	26	24 used by "The Snowbirds"; replacement expected by 2020[17] (since delayed beyond 2021).
de Havilland Canada CC-115 Buffalo	Canada	Propeller	SAR	1967	6		442 Sqn19 Wing Comox. To be retired and replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295)[18]
de Havilland Canada CC-138 Twin Otter	Canada	Propeller	Transport/SAR	1970s	4		440 SqnYellowknife attached to 17 Wing, Winnipeg.
de Havilland Canada CT-142	Canada	Propeller	Trainer	1987	4		402 Sqn17 Wing, Winnipeg
Lockheed CC-130 Hercules	US	Propeller	Tanker/SAR	1964[19]	12		8 Wing Trenton, 14 Wing Greenwood and 17 Wing Winnipeg.[20] 4 equipped for aerial refueling (CC-130HT, modified CC-130H); 8 SAR aircraft to be replaced by new FWSAR aircraft (EADS CASA C-295) from 2018-2022[18]
Lockheed CP-140M Aurora	US	Propeller	Maritime patrol/ASW/SAR	1980	14	18[21]	14 being modernized and retained in operational status. 14 Wing Greenwood and 19 Wing Comox.
Lockheed CP-140A Arcturus	US	Propeller	Trainer/Maritime reconnaissance/SAR	1991	1	3	404 Sqn14 Wing Greenwood.[22]
Lockheed Martin CC-130J Super Hercules	US	Propeller	Transport	2010	17	17	Replaced Lockheed CC-130 transport variants.
McDonnell Douglas CF-188A & B	US	Jet	Fighter/attack	1982	76 [23]	138	98 A and 40 B models originally acquired. 20 lost to accidents, 41 retired. 3 Wing Bagotville and 4 Wing Cold Lake.[notes 1][24] 18 ex-Royal Australian Air Force F-18s being delivered as an interim measure, increasing the fighter fleet to 94 CF-18/F-18A aircraft.[25]
Beechcraft CT-156 Harvard II	US	Propeller	Trainer	2000	24	26	24 leased in 2000, 2 added in 2002.[26] Two lost in crashes.[27][28]
Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone	US	Helicopter	ASW	2015	23[29]	28	Replaced CH-124 [30] 23 helicopters in service as of May 2021.[29] One airframe (Stalker-22) lost to crash on operations.[31]
IAI CU-170 Heron	Canada	UAV	Surveillance and target acquisition	2011	2	3
UMS CU-176 Gargoyle	Canada	UAV	Surveillance and target acquisition	2020

How many of those aircraft could be converted to "Optionally Manned" configurations?

Starting with the small stuff?

24x Harvard IIs? 26x Tutors? 16x Hawks? = 66 Fixed Wing

13x Jet Rangers? 100x Griffons? = 113 Rotary Wing

Autopilot + PLC + Smartphone + Servomotors + Solenoids? + FireScout and Loyal Wingman software licences?

179 Close Support UAVs that can also be used as Utility Trainers until they run down their clocks.

And, extending the thought further

84 to 156x Hornets = 84 to 156x Loyal Wingmen?

What does that do to the F-35 calculus? How many do we need to buy? How soon? And at what rate?

We need the F-35 but do we need 84 right away? Or do we need 4 squadrons of 10 immediately and an ongoing delivery? Continuous trickle of replacements? Or a couple of batches of 20 after 7 and 15 years?

We've already done it. Converting old fighters into drones. For target practice and as radar targets.

What does the used aircraft availability look like?

PS - ignore the guy in the cockpit. Surplus to requirement.

For that matter - why consider building 5000 hour airframes if airworthy 500 hour airframes can be built faster and cheaper. Keep them on local civilian sites for emergency call out so they maintain low hours. And convert them to drones when they start approaching their limits. Regularly buy replacements employing Quebec workers.

Related concept:

Green Goddess - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the Just-In-Case inventory for 50 years.

The Green Goddess is the colloquial name for the RLHZ Self Propelled Pump manufactured by Bedford Vehicles, a fire engine used originally by the Auxiliary Fire Service (AFS), and latterly held in reserve by the Home Office until 2004, and available when required to deal with exceptional events,

Prior to disbandment, the AFS used the Green Goddess extensively in support of the local fire services throughout the UK. They provided additional water delivery and firefighting capability at times when the regular fire brigades had a major incident to contain. The ability to relay large quantities of water over considerable distances was invaluable in some more remote locations, or where the incident required more water than local water systems could provide. Most UK boroughs had an Auxiliary Fire Service detachment housed alongside the regular brigade equipment.

After 1968, the vehicles were mothballed, but occasionally used by the Armed Forces to provide fire cover in a number of fire strikes, notably in 1977 and 2002 (see UK firefighter dispute 2002–2003). They were also deployed to pump water in floods and droughts. They were well maintained in storage, and regularly road tested. There was a less significant strike by firefighters in the Winter of Discontent (late 1978 and early 1979), where once again the Green Goddesses were drafted in to cover; it is largely forgotten by many as it occurred at a time when a significant percentage of public sector workers were on strike.