Future Helicopters

[dapaterson]

You are not wrong.

But, if not Lockmart/Boeing helicopters- then who? Leonardo? NH Industries? Nobody is easy to work with in this space.

I'm pretty sure we can find a kid with mad Photoshop skillz who can draw a mock-up and have Bombardier promise to build it for us with Bell Helicopter and GDMS-C in support.

 

[Baz]

We could always just get AW101 for everything.

Why?

It’s too big for some of the things being discussed.

 

[dapaterson]

Why?

It’s too big for some of the things being discussed.

Then we'll just go back to the drawing board and design bigger ships...

Some PMOs seem more interested in development than delivery...

 

[don3wing]

We could always just get AW101 for everything.

Read the story

CH-149 Cormorant Mid-Life Upgrade begins as Leonardo and IMP launch Canadian assembly line - Skies Mag

Assembly of the 615 variant of the CH-149 Cormorant began this fall at IMP Aerospace, mirroring Leonardo’s processes in the U.K.

skiesmag.com

 

[Maxman1]

Why?

It’s too big for some of the things being discussed.

It's the perfect size for SAR, ASW and maritime general purpose. Maybe a bit big for tac hel, but smaller than the Chinook, although the British make it work in that role and they also have Griffins.

Then we'll just go back to the drawing board and design bigger ships...

No need. The hangar on the Type 26/River class was designed to hold two Merlins.

 

[Baz]

It's the perfect size for SAR, ASW and maritime general purpose. Maybe a bit big for tac hel, but smaller than the Chinook, although the British make it work in that role and they also have Griffins.

What makes it the perfect size? If it is the only helo you have it rules out having helos on smaller ships, including AOPS.

The British don’t have Griffins, I think you might be referring to the Lynx / Wildcat?

No need. The hangar on the Type 26/River class was designed to hold two Merlins.

They are designed for 1 Merlin in the hangar, plus the ability to out another in the mission bay, which will probably happen very rarely. They are able to put two Wildcats in the hangar, and they’re not the only RN ship to be able to do so (Tyoe 45 can as well).

The Lynx / Merlin mix might make sense, but I’m not sure Canadian Tac Hel has the mass to afford three types (Chinook, AW101, and Lynx). Plus, 427 seems to n be leaning towards MH-60M.

 

[Maxman1]

What makes it the perfect size?

Our previous competition that selected the AW101 over the Sea Hawk. Being able to accommodate an additional crew station was a deciding factor.

The British don’t have Griffins, I think you might be referring to the Lynx / Wildcat?

They do operate the Bell 412 Griffin, or at least did until recently, albeit in small numbers and it appears only in the SAR role. It's one of the helicopters being replaced in the New Medium Helicopter program.

 

[Baz]

Our previous competition that selected the AW101 over the Sea Hawk. Being able to accommodate an additional crew station was a deciding factor.

The EH101 did not compete against the Sea Hawk in that competition; the Sea Hawk was disqualified becuase of the way the requirements were written. The only version of the Sea Hawk that was available at the time was the 60B (the 60F came into service in that time period). Those aircraft are not even being manufactured anymore; the 60R is a significantly more complex aircraft. It's not clear what mission system would be offered; certainly there are a few Merlin HM1s still in storage and the reasons why they are not considered for upgrade, considering the lack of Merlins in the fleet, are also not clear. We certainly don't want to be putting a "developmental" mission system in it.

Perhaps the intervening 35 years means we should revisit the CONOPs, requirements, and available aircraft?

As well, the AW101 will not solve, but rather exacerbate, the problem of helos for the AOPS, and the RCN's reticence to put helos on the CDC (if it materializes).

I'm not sympathetic to what you are saying; I was a young TACCO at CFB Shearwater (12 Wing didn't yet exist) when the EH101 was cancelled. I am very aware of the intent behind the additional crew station. My perferred course of action remains fix the Cyclone for just that reason. I'm entirely unconvinced that if we can't the AW101 is the "perfect" solution. The 60R is capable enough for where we now are, with a CONOPs rewrite, and comes with the benefit of robust transitional and in service support.

They do operate the Bell 412 Griffin, or at least did until recently, albeit in small numbers and it appears only in the SAR role. It's one of the helicopters being replaced in the New Medium Helicopter program.

Ack... but I'm not sure the relevance to the point you are making?

 

[ytz]

I feel bad for the RW folks at DAR. Their strategy to transition to Future Vertical Lift got screwed by the Cyclone problems and delays with FVL in the US. So now, whatever we buy won't get delivered till the end of this decade and will be obsolete by the end of the next decade. That's a whole lot of capital and training to flush.

 

[Maxman1]

The EH101 did not compete against the Sea Hawk in that competition; the Sea Hawk was disqualified becuase of the way the requirements were written. The only version of the Sea Hawk that was available at the time was the 60B (the 60F came into service in that time period). Those aircraft are not even being manufactured anymore; the 60R is a significantly more complex aircraft. It's not clear what mission system would be offered; certainly there are a few Merlin HM1s still in storage and the reasons why they are not considered for upgrade, considering the lack of Merlins in the fleet, are also not clear. We certainly don't want to be putting a "developmental" mission system in it.

Perhaps the intervening 35 years means we should revisit the CONOPs, requirements, and available aircraft?

As well, the AW101 will not solve, but rather exacerbate, the problem of helos for the AOPS, and the RCN's reticence to put helos on the CDC (if it materializes).

I'm not sympathetic to what you are saying; I was a young TACCO at CFB Shearwater (12 Wing didn't yet exist) when the EH101 was cancelled. I am very aware of the intent behind the additional crew station. My perferred course of action remains fix the Cyclone for just that reason. I'm entirely unconvinced that if we can't the AW101 is the "perfect" solution. The 60R is capable enough for where we now are, with a CONOPs rewrite, and comes with the benefit of robust transitional and in service support.

The Sea Hawk would be a massive improvement over what we have now, and Black Hawks would be an excellent replacement for the Griffin.

My thinking is simply that we should still evaluate the AW101 for additional roles besides SAR, including a thorough competition between the Merlin and 60R, and non-ASW, non-maritime version for tac lift (having a ramp and being smaller than the Chinook would be a huge benefit in that area).

Ack... but I'm not sure the relevance to the point you are making?

Nothing really, just pointing out we weren't the only ones dumb enough to get the Griffin.

 

[Baz]

The Sea Hawk would be a massive improvement over what we have now, and Black Hawks would be an excellent replacement for the Griffin.

If we don’t have or are unwilling to spend the resources to fix the Cyclone, or Sikorsky (or another support entity) us unwilling to do it, then agreed. The Cyclone is better on paper.

My thinking is simply that we should still evaluate the AW101 for additional roles besides SAR, including a thorough competition between the Merlin and 60R, and non-ASW, non-maritime version for tac lift (having a ramp and being smaller than the Chinook would be a huge benefit in that area).

Agree with evaluating it, unless other factors are in play (such as there is no available mission system for the AW101). I don’t know we have the resources for AW101s in the army.