Future of Nursing Home & Long-Term Care for Vets (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

Deal - closed ...

The Quebec Minister of Health and Social Services, Gaétan Barrette; the Minister responsible for Native Affairs and member for the riding of Jacques-Cartier, Geoffrey Kelley; Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Kent Hehr; as well as Francis Scarpaleggia, Member of Parliament for Lac-Saint-Louis, announced the official transfer of Ste. Anne's Hospital (SAH) to the Quebec health and social services network today ...

 

[George Wallace]

What gets me; is that once the last of the Korea and WW II veterans dies off, what happens to these Veterans Homes? Are all other Veterans considered "Second Class Veterans"?

 

[The Bread Guy]

What gets me; is that once the last of the Korea and WW II veterans dies off, what happens to these Veterans Homes? Are all other Veterans considered "Second Class Veterans"?

Good question - my guess is that the bed'll get taken over by provincially-funded agencies, and eventually, there'll be no more "veterans" beds left.

 

[ModlrMike]

Good question - my guess is that the bed'll get taken over by provincially-funded agencies, and eventually, there'll be no more "veterans" beds left.

WARNING: thread split potential

We were discussing this very question at work the other day. Someone raised the idea that the Legion and/or similar agencies could step into the void. Private homecare and eventual PCH care would seem a logical evolution. It might not be as low cost as the Veterans Affairs care, but it could be done economically.

Thoughts?

 

[The Bread Guy]

WARNING: thread split potential

Good idea - now merged with other long-term care & nursing home bed issues for vets.

 

[Danjanou]

WARNING: thread split potential

We were discussing this very question at work the other day. Someone raised the idea that the Legion and/or similar agencies could step into the void. Private homecare and eventual PCH care would seem a logical evolution. It might not be as low cost as the Veterans Affairs care, but it could be done economically.

Thoughts?

This was brought up at a Service Officer meeting in Aurora in Feb and it was agreed that branches in the GTA and 905 belt would start a letter writing campaign to MS to change the rules at Sunnybrook which will also revert to the Province after the last Second World War or Korean vet passes. Hopefully it will be brought up at Dominion Convention in June.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This was brought up at a Service Officer meeting in Aurora in Feb and it was agreed that branches in the GTA and 905 belt would start a letter writing campaign to MS to change the rules at Sunnybrook which will also revert to the Province after the last Second World War or Korean vet passes. Hopefully it will be brought up at Dominion Convention in June.

My knowledge of nursing home/long term care rules in Ontario is very rusty (+10 years old), but even if that happens, a vet would only get preference as long as there wasn't someone in greater need of care?  The "vet" card would break a tie, so to speak, between two folks needing the same level of care, but it wouldn't be a trump card?  Again, I'd love to hear from anyone with up-to-date knowledge of provincial LTC rules/regs on this.

 

[ModlrMike]

My idea was that these home would be owned and operated by the "Legion et-al" but conform to the provincial standards. That way, the veterans should have priority over other non-veteran applicants.

I can't speak for Ontario, but in other jurisdictions privately run PCH with a defined mandate can't be forced to admit residents where it does not support said mandate.

 

[The Bread Guy]

My idea was that these home would be owned and operated by the "Legion et-al" but conform to the provincial standards. That way, the veterans should have priority over other non-veteran applicants.

I can't speak for Ontario, but in other jurisdictions privately run PCH with a defined mandate can't be forced to admit residents where it does not support said mandate.

If "privately run" means zero provincial or federal subsidy dollars to operate the place, I'm thinking you can have whoever you want. 

Methinks, though (and I stand to be corrected), that the rules for homes receiving provincial $ wouldn't allow "group x" priority ahead of "medical need" priority.  If there's a centralized list of people waiting for long-term care, if candidate A needs a certain level of care, and candidate B needs slightly less care but is a vet, my understanding of the rules is that candidate A has to have first crack at any available bed.

 

[ModlrMike]

You're probably right, and therein lies the primary flaw in the idea. If the goal is to give veterans greater access, but no preference for veterans is established, then the possibility of veterans being shut out of these PCH looms large.

 

[dapaterson]

If the Legion ran nursing homes like some branches run their buildings...

 

[Danjanou]

If the Legion ran nursing homes like some branches run their buildings...

yup. The Legion set up the Tony Stacey Centre for veterans in Scarborough decades ago. Not sure exactly what happened but they apparently share control with the City and  Province and have little or no say on who gets in, less than a third of the beds are vets and vets spouses now. Legion still gets to pick up the tab for most of the operating  costs resulting in numerous fundraising and poppy donations yearly. Appears to be poorly run and having met some of the board members  from the Legion not surprised,. Not that they are bad people just lacking the skill sets to run it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

yup. The Legion set up the Tony Stacey Centre for veterans in Scarborough decades ago. Not sure exactly what happened but they apparently share control with the City and  Province and have little or no say on who gets in, less than a third of the beds are vets and vets spouses now. Legion still gets to pick up the tab for most of the operating  costs resulting in numerous fundraising and poppy donations yearly. Appears to be poorly run and having met some of the board members  from the Legion not surprised,. Not that they are bad people just lacking the skill sets to run it.

I am not personally familiar with the Tony Stacey Centre and it's been a few decades since I had firsthand experience with funding of health care services in Ontario, however the internet is wonderful and I was able to find a variety of information that may be of interest and will specifically refute the statement that I've highlighted.  According to the Registered Charity Information Return (T3010) (as presented by Chimp from the information available at CRA) of their roughly $6.7m budget, the majority of funding (67%) is provided by government; the amount from charitable fundraising (i.e. from the Legion) is minimal (3%).  I assume that the rest is mostly from charges imposed on the residents.

To see what the facility has to say about itself:
http://www.tonystaceycentre.ca/about.html

In August 1976, Tony Stacey Centre for Veterans Care (then called Metro Toronto Legion Village) opened its doors as a retirement home for veterans, their spouses, dependants, silver cross mothers and the community.  In 1994 it changed from a retirement home to a long term care facility.

As to why a LTC facility cannot exclude some and be exclusively for veterans - the simple answer is, if a facility wants to be subsidized by the government they have to abide by government regulations.  In Ontario, those regulations generally provide that admissions to subsidized LTC facilities are centrally coordinated.

As to how well the Tony Stacey Centre performs, there is some information available at CIHI, however the indicators of administrative and financial performance are not available for this particular facility.

 

[The Bread Guy]

As to why a LTC facility cannot exclude some and be exclusively for veterans - the simple answer is, if a facility wants to be subsidized by the government they have to abide by government regulations.  In Ontario, those regulations generally provide that admissions to subsidized LTC facilities are centrally coordinated.

Thanks for confirming that 

 

[mariomike]

I remember Metro Legion Village.

 

[Danjanou]

Blackadder, thanks the next time the District comes hat in hand for more of my Poppy funds  for TCS I'll  point out some of your info.  From all I've heard including from former tenants the place is poorly run.  Mario that was it's old name as I recall.

 

[mariomike]

Mario that was it's old name as I recall.

I don't know what it looks like now, but it seemed like a well-run place, as I remember.

 

[The Bread Guy]

As to why a LTC facility cannot exclude some and be exclusively for veterans - the simple answer is, if a facility wants to be subsidized by the government they have to abide by government regulations.  In Ontario, those regulations generally provide that admissions to subsidized LTC facilities are centrally coordinated.

Taking that a bit further, we see a bit more backstory to the changes in this CBC story:

... During the First World War, the federal government operated 44 hospitals across Canada to give treatment to injured soldiers. As universal and provincial health care services evolved, Veterans Affairs Canada said the need for treatment declined. The number of facilities open to veterans reduced and in 1955 there were 18 remaining.

Then in 1966, the Government of Canada decided to transfer all of its federal health care facilities over to the provinces — a move that was only recently completed when Ste. Anne's Hospital was transferred to Quebec in April 2016. Part of the agreement was that Second World War and Korean War veterans would have the same priority access to these facilities.

Meanwhile, modern-day veterans have the same access to long-term care as the general public.

Minister of Veterans Affairs Kent Hehr said the system has evolved — and what's in place today is much better than the old model.

"In fact, veterans have access to over 1,500 places where they're getting care in their communities, where they can be closer to their families," Hehr told CBC News.

"Our veterans are overwhelmingly happy that they're there. They have access to care in their communities, not in some antiquated place far away from home. It's really actually working quite well." ...

Old system:  vets got dedicated beds with other vets.  New system:  more beds closer to home*, but no guarantee/priority for vets, or being with other vets.

* - I question this only because I know in my part of Ontario, waiting lists for ANY nursing home/long-term care bed can be loooooooooong.

 

[ModlrMike]

As someone who works in the system, I respectfully submit that the Minister is full of cow dung. We have people taking up acute care beds in excess of six months because there's no long term beds. In fact, just inside the Wpg perimeter highway, we're 700 PCH beds short.

 

[The Bread Guy]

As someone who works in the system, I respectfully submit that the Minister is full of cow dung. We have people taking up acute care beds in excess of six months because there's no long term beds. In fact, just inside the Wpg perimeter highway, we're 700 PCH beds short.

So it's not JUST an Ontario thing, then. Then all he can REALLY say is that the new system is good for offering beds closer to home -- if there are any, I guess.