A
aesop081
Guest
GAP said:
What does that have to do with what i posted ?
What does that have to do with what i posted ?
DND pushes quick plane deal
DANIEL LEBLANC Globe and Mail Update
Article Link
OTTAWA — The Canadian Forces are preparing to spend billions of dollars buying search-and-rescue aircraft through a process that has excluded all but one bid.
The Italian-built Spartan C27J aircraft has been pegged by sources as the only aircraft ready for purchase to replace the Buffalo and Hercules aircraft that currently cover Canada's forests, mountains and coastline.
The old Liberal government announced funding in 2004 for new fixed-wing aircraft and the Department of National Defence is moving to launch the formal process to acquire the aircraft, which were due to be in service by last year.
A DND document obtained by The Globe and Mail confirmed that only one aircraft is being considered as a “viable bidder” for the search-and-rescue contract. The project is worth about $3-billion, including the maintenance of the aircraft over 20 years.
Defence contracts are among the most lucrative deals the government signs, and if the Spartan is bought, it will illustrate a growing government habit of signing multibillion-dollar deals without accepting competing bids.
Last year, Ottawa purchased 16 Chinook helicopters for $2.7-billion, four C17 cargo airplanes for $3.4-billion, and 17 C130J Hercules transport planes for $5-billion. In all these cases, only the winning bid was considered.
In the upcoming search-and-rescue competition, the builders of a rival aircraft, the Spanish C295, are engaged in intense lobbying in Ottawa to change the requirements in the hope of qualifying for the competition.
Their plane is used in a number of countries for search-and-rescue operations, but it cannot meet the current requirements established by the Canadian Forces. The company is frustrated that it has even been prevented from showing its C295 to Defence officials.
“We're interested in a fair, open and transparent competition,” said Martin Sefzig of EADS-CASA, the company behind the C295
More on link
DANIEL LEBLANC Globe and Mail Update
Article Link
OTTAWA — The Canadian Forces are preparing to spend billions of dollars buying search-and-rescue aircraft through a process that has excluded all but one bid.
The Italian-built Spartan C27J aircraft has been pegged by sources as the only aircraft ready for purchase to replace the Buffalo and Hercules aircraft that currently cover Canada's forests, mountains and coastline.
The old Liberal government announced funding in 2004 for new fixed-wing aircraft and the Department of National Defence is moving to launch the formal process to acquire the aircraft, which were due to be in service by last year.
A DND document obtained by The Globe and Mail confirmed that only one aircraft is being considered as a “viable bidder” for the search-and-rescue contract. The project is worth about $3-billion, including the maintenance of the aircraft over 20 years.
Defence contracts are among the most lucrative deals the government signs, and if the Spartan is bought, it will illustrate a growing government habit of signing multibillion-dollar deals without accepting competing bids.
Last year, Ottawa purchased 16 Chinook helicopters for $2.7-billion, four C17 cargo airplanes for $3.4-billion, and 17 C130J Hercules transport planes for $5-billion. In all these cases, only the winning bid was considered.
In the upcoming search-and-rescue competition, the builders of a rival aircraft, the Spanish C295, are engaged in intense lobbying in Ottawa to change the requirements in the hope of qualifying for the competition.
Their plane is used in a number of countries for search-and-rescue operations, but it cannot meet the current requirements established by the Canadian Forces. The company is frustrated that it has even been prevented from showing its C295 to Defence officials.
“We're interested in a fair, open and transparent competition,” said Martin Sefzig of EADS-CASA, the company behind the C295
More on link
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CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/03/defence-contract.html#skip300x250
Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.
The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.
The Italian-built Spartan C27J is being considered to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes in rescue missions in Canada, a report says.
(Courtesy Finmeccanica) The contract includes aircraft maintenance for 20 years.
Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.
Martin Sefzig, spokesperson for EADS-CASA, which makes the C295, told the newspaper that the plane is used in eight countries, while the Italian-built plane has not proven itself a search-and-rescue aircraft.
He said the company has not been allowed to show the Spanish plane to DND officials. Both planes, the Italian-built and the Spanish, cost about $30 million to $40 million each, the report says.
Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.
"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."
Opposition parties have criticized Ottawa for awarding defence contracts without considering other bids.
Liberal MP and defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told the newspaper that the procurement process lacks "civilian oversight" because purchases are driven mostly by military requirements, and the Harper government may not be getting the best value for its money without considering other bids.
Canada's Department of National Defence is poised to buy new search and rescue aircraft, but will look at only one bid for a $3-billion contract because of the military's strict requirements, says a newspaper report.
The Canadian Forces is considering the Italian-built Spartan C27J as the only "viable bidder" when it moves to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes currently deployed in rescue missions in Canada, according to a DND document obtained by the Globe and Mail.
The Italian-built Spartan C27J is being considered to replace Buffalo and Hercules planes in rescue missions in Canada, a report says.
(Courtesy Finmeccanica) The contract includes aircraft maintenance for 20 years.
Lobbying, however, is underway by the makers of a competing aircraft, the Spanish C295, as company officials attempt to persuade DND officials to alter requirements to allow them to take part in the bid.
Martin Sefzig, spokesperson for EADS-CASA, which makes the C295, told the newspaper that the plane is used in eight countries, while the Italian-built plane has not proven itself a search-and-rescue aircraft.
He said the company has not been allowed to show the Spanish plane to DND officials. Both planes, the Italian-built and the Spanish, cost about $30 million to $40 million each, the report says.
Retired Lt.-Gen. George Macdonald, who prefers the Spartan, told the Globe and Mail that it is the only plane that meets DND requirements, and is the largest and fastest of its kind.
"To compromise on the requirements in any way would be a difficult thing to address," Macdonald is quoted as saying. "If you get something that ultimately cannot perform the job as identified by the Canadian Forces, who have the best experience in doing this, (it) would be a fundamental error in the process."
Opposition parties have criticized Ottawa for awarding defence contracts without considering other bids.
Liberal MP and defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told the newspaper that the procurement process lacks "civilian oversight" because purchases are driven mostly by military requirements, and the Harper government may not be getting the best value for its money without considering other bids.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Inch said:
It appears Darwin missed his Riding, if this is the IQ that that Riding deems preferable to be their Elected Member.
civmick
Jr. Member
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Dion needs to boot Dosanjh from Defence critic, he has been worse than useless, but I think even supporters of increased CF procurement will look in askance at this, as I do. Could the C-27J win the contest? Probably. Engine commonality with the C-130J will help for one thing. But the current trend of sole source bids is not a good thing. That said, unlike some, I am not saying we should just buy An-74s 
Meanwhile I see Mark at the Torch has noted the possibility of increased C-17 orders in UK due to fears of yet another A400M slip. The difference being of course that the CN-295 is certified and I believe should have been given a shot.
Meanwhile I see Mark at the Torch has noted the possibility of increased C-17 orders in UK due to fears of yet another A400M slip. The difference being of course that the CN-295 is certified and I believe should have been given a shot.
ArmyRick
Army.ca Veteran
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Right on !!! No more purchasing of "paper equipment" 
What makes Mr Dosanjh an expert? Haven't the liberals had their moment to shine with their new golden egg, Dion? Can't they leave military matters and responsible leadership to the Conservatives? Guess not. Sore losers still bitter about the last election.
As far as the spanish C295 team trying to change the requirements, F*ck off to them I says. We don't need any 2nd or 3rd rate equipment.
What makes Mr Dosanjh an expert? Haven't the liberals had their moment to shine with their new golden egg, Dion? Can't they leave military matters and responsible leadership to the Conservatives? Guess not. Sore losers still bitter about the last election.
As far as the spanish C295 team trying to change the requirements, F*ck off to them I says. We don't need any 2nd or 3rd rate equipment.
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civmick said:
Certified or not - IT DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA SPECIFIED.
You cannot shoehorn something to be what it is not. Thats how we got the LSVW and a bunch of other crap.
The Military specifies the requirements and it is put to bid. If only one platform makes the specs -- well so be it.
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Exactly. Why should sub-standard equipment be "given a shot" simply because its manufacturer is whining? DND publishes very definitive requirements for equipment it is planning to replace or for new capabilities. If there are manufacturers that can meet those requirements, they can compete for the business of fulfilling them. If there happens to be only one, so be it.
The Spanish, Airbus and other whiny Euros need to keep their lawyers on their leashes and quit crying "foul" every time a contract is awarded. Design an aircraft that's flying and that actually meets our needs and we'll look at it.
As for Dosanjh... He could care less about what the military requirement actually is and more about how many votes can be gained by awarding Bombardier yet another contract. All he sees is "regional economic benefits" and views the CF's actually saying what it wants as something akin to a military coup. He is the worst defence critic in memory and a more articulate, forceful and dynamic minister would have put him in his place months ago.
The Spanish, Airbus and other whiny Euros need to keep their lawyers on their leashes and quit crying "foul" every time a contract is awarded. Design an aircraft that's flying and that actually meets our needs and we'll look at it.
As for Dosanjh... He could care less about what the military requirement actually is and more about how many votes can be gained by awarding Bombardier yet another contract. All he sees is "regional economic benefits" and views the CF's actually saying what it wants as something akin to a military coup. He is the worst defence critic in memory and a more articulate, forceful and dynamic minister would have put him in his place months ago.
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schart28 said:
Imagine, military acquisitions being driven by military requirements! :
(add that one to the list of Liberal waffling, right under "a proof is a proof is a proof")
Perhaps the Defence critic should be the "civilian oversight" he so craves - care to be dressed in MKIIIs, an 82 pattern ruck and be driven around in the back of an LSVW while we search for a broken down Iltis?
Perhaps some military oversight should be applied to the house of commons, to ensure they don't abuse their authority by giving themselves a(nother) raise and a pension after 8 years - to make sure the public gets the "best value" for their elected representatives.
civmick
Jr. Member
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There is an assumption being made that the people writing the requirements are doing so like in the early 20th century UK where there would be an Air Staff Requirement and manufacturers would build to it. These days CF Air can design the requirement but the likelihood of an mfg building to order is nil. Therefore there has to be a realistic expectation that in service/in development types or easy adaptations thereof will suit.
There is an expectation of benefit to C-27 such as engine and the other L-M contributions but remember this is not a downsized Herc, it's a reworked G.222 so that's only going to go so far. Commonality went right out the window with the Cyclone purchase.
I do not believe the people who drew up the spec were ignorant of the capabilities of CN-295 or C-27J. There appears to be a culture now of picking the aircraft and magically a requirement that appears to only fit one aircraft. That is only going to go on for so long until someone finds a way of leveraging that process against the better interest of the Forces and of Canada. That may not be the case here but I think some here are too blase about the possibility of it occurring. It is in the interest of the CF that manufacturers believe our procurement process to be fair. It is in the interest of the CF for all manufacturers to be aggressive and competitive about seeking business. The answer to procurement process issues is to make a better process, not end run around it.
There is an expectation of benefit to C-27 such as engine and the other L-M contributions but remember this is not a downsized Herc, it's a reworked G.222 so that's only going to go so far. Commonality went right out the window with the Cyclone purchase.
I do not believe the people who drew up the spec were ignorant of the capabilities of CN-295 or C-27J. There appears to be a culture now of picking the aircraft and magically a requirement that appears to only fit one aircraft. That is only going to go on for so long until someone finds a way of leveraging that process against the better interest of the Forces and of Canada. That may not be the case here but I think some here are too blase about the possibility of it occurring. It is in the interest of the CF that manufacturers believe our procurement process to be fair. It is in the interest of the CF for all manufacturers to be aggressive and competitive about seeking business. The answer to procurement process issues is to make a better process, not end run around it.
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Does anyone know what aspects of the C295 do not meet the requirements of che C27J?
If memory serves me right, many on this forum were peeing on the C27J's cornflakes for one reason or another about this time last year... something about the US not having been too happy with their early production models.
If both aircraft are already certified and in production, how much additional time would it take to give a kick at the tires of both aircraft one last time?
Then again, I'm just a scruffy old engineer
If memory serves me right, many on this forum were peeing on the C27J's cornflakes for one reason or another about this time last year... something about the US not having been too happy with their early production models.
If both aircraft are already certified and in production, how much additional time would it take to give a kick at the tires of both aircraft one last time?
Then again, I'm just a scruffy old engineer
civmick
Jr. Member
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geo
The website www.c-295.ca has some quotes from Greek newspapers about water leakage and other issues in two early C-27J frames. In doing some googling however the HAF does seem to be accepting the rest of the order so presumably corrective action was taken.
To be honest the manner in which those articles are presented on the website seems a bit childish for a professional lobbying exercise but never having been so desperate as to consider being a lobbyist to earn a living I can't speak authoritatively
The website www.c-295.ca has some quotes from Greek newspapers about water leakage and other issues in two early C-27J frames. In doing some googling however the HAF does seem to be accepting the rest of the order so presumably corrective action was taken.
To be honest the manner in which those articles are presented on the website seems a bit childish for a professional lobbying exercise but never having been so desperate as to consider being a lobbyist to earn a living I can't speak authoritatively
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Civmick:
The issues I have with the "follow the process" approach that our puppet masters have abused for so long is that there has been a very disturbing tendency for military requirements to take a back seat to both regional industrial porkbarrelling and to "political" considerations (particularly a desire to "spread" defence procurement amongst several countries - which explains the LG1, the Eryx, etc.. Both are French - detect a trend?).
Today's military cannot afford to wait for procurement issues to be settled in the courts or for political considerations to override requirements. Serving officers today have extensive experience working with specific items of equipment and know - almost intuitively - which of those items are the best fit for the Forces. The C-17 is a perfect example of an aircraft that Canadians have used to deploy to theatre, have worked alongside for many years, and that is in current service with our major allies. It is a known quantity and, most importantly, available now against a clearly articulated requirement. Why should there be a long, drawn out process merely to satisfy Airbus, whose A-400M isn't even flying yet?
I agree: when introducing equipment that is an unknown quantity in order to introduce a new capability, it is best to follow the formal process to mitigate risk. Should that process be applied here? Perhaps - I don't know enough about either aircraft to offer a categorical opinion (I believe that there are range issues with the C295).
The issues I have with the "follow the process" approach that our puppet masters have abused for so long is that there has been a very disturbing tendency for military requirements to take a back seat to both regional industrial porkbarrelling and to "political" considerations (particularly a desire to "spread" defence procurement amongst several countries - which explains the LG1, the Eryx, etc.. Both are French - detect a trend?).
Today's military cannot afford to wait for procurement issues to be settled in the courts or for political considerations to override requirements. Serving officers today have extensive experience working with specific items of equipment and know - almost intuitively - which of those items are the best fit for the Forces. The C-17 is a perfect example of an aircraft that Canadians have used to deploy to theatre, have worked alongside for many years, and that is in current service with our major allies. It is a known quantity and, most importantly, available now against a clearly articulated requirement. Why should there be a long, drawn out process merely to satisfy Airbus, whose A-400M isn't even flying yet?
I agree: when introducing equipment that is an unknown quantity in order to introduce a new capability, it is best to follow the formal process to mitigate risk. Should that process be applied here? Perhaps - I don't know enough about either aircraft to offer a categorical opinion (I believe that there are range issues with the C295).
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It's really quite hilarious to listen to Mr Dossanjh sometimes.
IIRC, in early 2005 DND had pretty much made up it's mind on an SAR aircraft for this application. EADS then whined to Mr Martin and Mr Graham that they had not been given a fair shot.
Despite the speed, range and capacity shortcomings of the CASA aircraft they (EADS) argued that all of these shortcomings could be overcome if CF just decided to build more airstations across the north. (Not full blown CFB's mind you, just CF airstrips or improvements to local civ airstrips, to enable the stationing of SAR aircraft across the north).
Mr Martin then sent DND back to the drawing board, putting a project already two years behind, further behind.
All on the unlikely supposition that a slow, short winded, cramped aircraft could suffice because more of them could be bought and they could be stationed closer to the AOR.
So it seems that Mr Dossanjh is lobbying for something that has already been done, twice, re-examine the parameters of the requirement, in order to 'ensure transparency'.
PS Just looking back at the original post "DND pushes quick plane deal": thanks to the Globe and Mail for the temporal appreciation there, six or eight years is quick? More objective journalism from the grey old lady ... sigh
IIRC, in early 2005 DND had pretty much made up it's mind on an SAR aircraft for this application. EADS then whined to Mr Martin and Mr Graham that they had not been given a fair shot.
Despite the speed, range and capacity shortcomings of the CASA aircraft they (EADS) argued that all of these shortcomings could be overcome if CF just decided to build more airstations across the north. (Not full blown CFB's mind you, just CF airstrips or improvements to local civ airstrips, to enable the stationing of SAR aircraft across the north).
Mr Martin then sent DND back to the drawing board, putting a project already two years behind, further behind.
All on the unlikely supposition that a slow, short winded, cramped aircraft could suffice because more of them could be bought and they could be stationed closer to the AOR.
So it seems that Mr Dossanjh is lobbying for something that has already been done, twice, re-examine the parameters of the requirement, in order to 'ensure transparency'.
PS Just looking back at the original post "DND pushes quick plane deal": thanks to the Globe and Mail for the temporal appreciation there, six or eight years is quick? More objective journalism from the grey old lady ... sigh
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Some pertinent information from airforce-technology.com:
Considering we're buying C-130Js and Lockheed-Martin's role in producing the Spartan, the reasoning behind decision becomes somewhat clearer, no?
Considering we're buying C-130Js and Lockheed-Martin's role in producing the Spartan, the reasoning behind decision becomes somewhat clearer, no?
civmick
Jr. Member
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Teddy R - I agree that processes should not be drawn out to accommodate manufacturers who do not have a plane to deliver, such as A400M. As I pointed out earlier, that is different from this process, where the contenders are both in service.
I agree that in former times the CN-295 might have been picked to satisfy PWC given their supply of the engines. I also agree that having a public process of defence procurement is harder than for other government industries given the international nature of military materiel. However, that's not a reason to scrap it entirely and make it DND only given the reality of industrial offsets which help pay the bill and for which DND have no specific experience in industrial policy.
As for your later post - if we wanted Herc commonality we could have asked Lockheed to supply short C-130s as they did for the US FCA or buy the UK Mk5s. Going C-27J is more common than CN-295 but not fully common, and from an engine POV CN-295 would probably offer commonality when they throw the Twotter replacement to Bombardier-PWC.
I agree that in former times the CN-295 might have been picked to satisfy PWC given their supply of the engines. I also agree that having a public process of defence procurement is harder than for other government industries given the international nature of military materiel. However, that's not a reason to scrap it entirely and make it DND only given the reality of industrial offsets which help pay the bill and for which DND have no specific experience in industrial policy.
As for your later post - if we wanted Herc commonality we could have asked Lockheed to supply short C-130s as they did for the US FCA or buy the UK Mk5s. Going C-27J is more common than CN-295 but not fully common, and from an engine POV CN-295 would probably offer commonality when they throw the Twotter replacement to Bombardier-PWC.
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/c-27.htm
Though the US had the A model and we are looking at the J model, have the bugs been ironed out? If the USAF, with their budget, found the C27s to be uneconomical, should we be jumping into this without looking at what the compteition has to offer?
Though the US had the A model and we are looking at the J model, have the bugs been ironed out? If the USAF, with their budget, found the C27s to be uneconomical, should we be jumping into this without looking at what the compteition has to offer?
A
aesop081
Guest
Infidel-6 said:
So are we right now. But this is expensive to do. We also have limited resources to buy aircraft with. The money for the new C-130J has to be used for providing airlift for the Cf and there is no money to buy more for FWSAR hence why we are looking at a more cost effective solution to replace the CC-115 and CC-130E being used in the SAR role.
