• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

  • Thread starter Thread starter aesop081
  • Start date Start date
Still, one can hope that if Alenia is calling for a full and transparent competition, DND will oblige.

Rescue Randy, note the precise language the Alenia spokesman uses: "We would welcome the opportunity to put the C-27J Spartan up against what we know will be extremely demanding performance criteria."

They know they're not going to get an ACAN for this procurement, but my read is that they're hoping for an SOIQ that sets the bar high for their aircraft's strengths (top speed, etc), and low for their weaknesses (maneuvering speed as you've laid out).  That way they can say their aircraft won the competition without there being much competition.

Watch what they do if the FWSAR project office puts out specs that focus on handling at low speeds in tight places or some such - I suspect there would be an immediate PR push about 'political considerations watering down military requirements', or a similar narrative.

This is going to be a knife-fight by the companies involved, but in the end it's going to come down to DND's specs.
 
I'll remind youall that the rescue scenario painted here repeatedly in this forum is one that may happen in one SARregion only, Pacific. That is why the buff is in Comox, and why Comox will be the last to get a new operational aircraft. There are unique challenges to mountain flying that make all aircraft a compromise. Comox will be the last sqn to go operational in the new aircraft, and presumably all crews will be trained here b4 being posted to their sqns, so we will have a few years of "trial and eval" b4 we ever have to face the situation that some hysterically paint. The buff and lab were the best choice for mountain SAR in the 1970s, for sure. Advances in technology have made them less so today. Our tactics, like any branch of service must evolve to utilize modern tech to solve modern problems. Do not forget the 80% or so of canada's land mass that isn't rugged and mountainous, or the miles of ocean. The c295 is slow, needs more runway, and doesn't self start reliably. Its cargo compartment is long and narrow,meaning that some gear will need to be stowed further from where it is needed ( near the ramp) and doesn't allow normal height people to work or walk upright inside the "tube" ( buff performs this admirably)  the C27 "squats" in the rear enabling gear to be more efficiently loaded into its roomy cargo compartment. yes we will have challenges calling drops out of either aircraft. The c27's landing gear config means we cannot see well from a rear placed bubble. Currently sar crews operate in the herc with no bubble at all, and make do. I don't want to make do, but no matter what, I won't see a pressurized, fast, digital buffalo, so to me capabilities need to be weighed. As an operator, I want to get on scene in a hurry, be able to work on route ( buffalo is unpressurized, and I am pinned to an O2 stand untill we get close and descend). I want to get my gear ready b4 I need it, and maybe prep some stuff I might not need, and not be tripping over it.  I want to get dressed in my 150 lbs or whatever gear, and be able to get out the back as efficiently as possible. I don't think the Casa will be able to do this as well as the C27. Whatever, I'll be falling out the side door of a bombadier probably anyway.

(edited to make myself seem smarter.)
 
Advances in technology have made them less so today. Our tactics, like any branch of service must evolve to utilize modern tech to solve modern problems.

This bit has tended to bother me as well.  As noted by many others none of the aircraft on offer is a one-for-one exchange for what is on hand so it seems to me that procedures will have to change in any event.  At the same time I am a bit surprised that this FWSAR project seems to be largely a "flying box" used for transporting paramedics, tents, a first aid kit and 4 or 5 pairs of eyes to the scene.  With all the advances in technology relative to thermal imaging, IR scanning, Synthetic Aperture Radar, Moving Target Indicators, launchable UAVs, para-dropped cameras etc - not to mention just the ability to take a camcorder on board, do a fast pass over an area and then review it electronically at leisure the way the Coyote does things on the ground - I am a bit surprised that more attention isn't being paid to turning this into more of a SEARCH (read RECCE) platform with a useful transport capability.
 
kj_gully: Don't worry too much about Bombardier--this appears to be their crumb:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-equipment-for-canadian-forces.html

* Utility Transport Aircraft. Bombardier is the favourite to win this contract, valued at about $380-million, with its Dash-8 contract [sic].

Mark
Ottawa
 
Rescue Randy said:
This is intentional misinformation by Alenia.  In the Canadian Forces, the maneuvering speed that is used for searching and aerial delivery for CC 130s Hercules aircraft is defined as : the 45 degree bank power-off stall speed, plus 20 knots indicated airspeed (for safety consideration). 

Searching is carried out with partial flap selected, in order to reduce stalling speed and provide a slower search speed.  The lower speed is safer in contour search operations and provides far more effective search coverage; the slower the aircraft searches, the more the spotters see. If full (or landing flap) were selected, the aircraft stalling speed would drop further, but this is not done for a number of reasons - the aircraft will have trouble recovering in the event of an engine failure, the aircraft handling is far more labor intensive at full flap, the stresses on the aircraft are considerable (they are not manufactured to fly at full flap continually), and a higher power setting will be required which increases fuel burn, reduces endurance, and increases noise and vibration levels in the cabin.

Stalling speed for search is computed using aircraft weight in search configuration, with SAR gear on board.  The reason it uses 45 degree bank stalling speed is that if you fly straight and level at just above stalling speed, and do a turn, you will stall.  The 45 degree bank stalling speed is 1.2 times the level flight stalling speed.  Similarly, the reason that power-off stalling speed is used is that while "power on" stall speed is lower, if power is reduced or an engine fails, the aircraft will immediately stall - obviously an unsafe situation. 

With five hours fuel and the 6900 pound SAR load that is required for the FWSAR, the Spartan power -off stalling speed at 45 degrees of bank is 120 knots, when 20 knots airspeed is added for safety margin the maneuvering or Search speed is calculated to be 140 knots.  This is ten knots faster than a Hercules with an identical SAR load and equivalent fuel load, and ten knots faster than the maximum search speed established for visual search in the National SAR Manual.  The only way the Spartan can get to the 80-90 knots that Alenia claims is to have an empty aircraft, wings level, and power on - obviously the aircraft would never search in that configuration.  They are knowingly comparing apples to oranges.

Still, one can hope that if Alenia is calling for a full and transparent competition, DND will oblige.

So between the lines, the only solution is a C-130, right?

And if that's the case why doesn't the government buy the C-130 under the auspices that it's required to do SAR properly and would provide essential emergency tactical lift in the case of a Canadian Disaster or Emergency.  In short, provide dual-funding and a dual-role to justify what appears to be the right aircraft.


Matthew.  :salute:
 
They could go for some of the "short" CC130Js that the UK appears to want to dispose of (in the interest of a uniform fleet)

But.... oh yeah - we did get some slightly used subs from them - didn't we :o
 
Kirkhill said:
This bit has tended to bother me as well.  As noted by many others none of the aircraft on offer is a one-for-one exchange for what is on hand so it seems to me that procedures will have to change in any event.  At the same time I am a bit surprised that this FWSAR project seems to be largely a "flying box" used for transporting paramedics, tents, a first aid kit and 4 or 5 pairs of eyes to the scene.  With all the advances in technology relative to thermal imaging, IR scanning, Synthetic Aperture Radar, Moving Target Indicators, launchable UAVs, para-dropped cameras etc - not to mention just the ability to take a camcorder on board, do a fast pass over an area and then review it electronically at leisure the way the Coyote does things on the ground - I am a bit surprised that more attention isn't being paid to turning this into more of a SEARCH (read RECCE) platform with a useful transport capability.

Interesting question, Kirkhill, but the Air Force set the precedent with the Cormorant when it eliminated the requirement for a forward-looking infrared sensor on the CH149.  I still shake my head at that decision.

G2G
 
geo said:
They could go for some of the "short" CC130Js that the UK appears to want to dispose of (in the interest of a uniform fleet)

For you my friend, colonial status special - those subs were an accident I swear - here, have a few hercs filled with SA-80s - a special gift of more excellent kit!

I swear, these ones don't catch fire!  ::)
 
Globe and Mail

Military procurement under fire

Purchasing process lacks oversight, ex-bureaucrat says


By DANIEL LEBLANC 

Wednesday, January 10, 2007 – Page A4



OTTAWA -- The military branch at National Defence has grabbed control of the procurement process from the hands of the department's civilian branch, the former top bureaucrat on the acquisition file at DND said in an interview.

Alan Williams, the retired assistant deputy minister for procurement, said the consequences of this recent change are massive: Canadians stand to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in extra costs in coming military purchases, with no guarantee of obtaining the best product.

The situation also goes against the tradition in which the Canadians Forces run the military aspects of Canada's defence, while civilians are responsible for setting the overall policy objectives and the administration of the department.

Mr. Williams is sounding the alarm as the government is buying $13-billion in aircraft through processes that a number of critics said are uncompetitive, with only one company in the running for each purchase.

"These de facto sole-sourced contracts show there is something wrong in the overall procurement system," Mr. Williams said.

Mr. Williams offered an anecdote to explain what is wrong with the situation, in which the military is trying to direct purchases in favour of hand-picked products.

When General Rick Hillier became Chief of the Defence Staff in February, 2005, he and Mr. Williams had a meeting during which Gen. Hillier laid out his desire for a specific helicopter built by Boeing.

"He told me, 'Alan, we need Chinooks,' " Mr. Williams said. "I said, 'Rick, your job is to define the requirements, and my job is to work the system and find the optimum solution to meet your needs."

Gen. Hillier eventually got his wish, as the Tory government approved the purchase of 16 Chinook helicopters, saying it was the only aircraft to meet the requirements of the Canadians Forces.

Mr. Williams said that Gen. Hillier, who is known as a tough and aggressive leader in the military, is doing his job, but that his civilian counterparts aren't exercising appropriate oversight these days.

"If no one is going to . . . force him to back off a bit, he won't. He certainly won't do it until someone makes him do it," Mr. Williams said. "If you're a military person, I think you feel thrilled with the kind of leadership you're getting from him. It just has to be sort of monitored or managed when he gets outside his lanes, and that kind of thing isn't happening as readily now."

In addition to purchasing Chinook helicopters, DND started last year to acquire C17 cargo planes and C130J transport planes, through processes in which only one aircraft qualified for each competition.

Another top priority at DND is to purchase search-and-rescue planes at a cost of $3-billion, once again through a process in which only one aircraft, Alenia's C27J, is seen to be in the running.

"There is no strong civilian authority in place to question or to challenge this," Mr. Williams said.

He said that without adequate competitions on these purchases, the government will likely pay 5 to 20 per cent too much to the winning companies.

Mr. Williams worked from 1999 to 2005 at DND, where he assisted in planning for the current purchases.

When The Globe and Mail asked DND for an official response to his comments, a spokeswoman said that the procurement process is overseen by civilians at the Department of Public Works, and that the cabinet has to approve all major initiatives. Spokeswoman Krista Hannivan added that former military officials have to adhere to the rules governing all civilians when they enter the bureaucracy.

"Before procurement initiatives can become projects, they are scrutinized by and require approval from a number of committees of boards, many of which are comprised solely of civilians . . . like cabinet committees and Treasury Board," Ms. Hannivan said.

In a recent book, Reinventing Canadian Defence Procurement, Mr. Williams said the military is using its power to set out technical requirements for new equipment to shut out products from the process.

Mr. Williams is advocating the creation of a body that would be responsible for major purchases from DND and Public Works Canada.

Current Purchases

Product: C-17 Globemaster

Need: Giant cargo planes for "strategic lift"

Possible usage: Bringing armoured vehicles to combat zones

Company: Boeing

Number: 4

Budget (aircraft and maintenance): $3.4-billion

Status: The government is negotiating the purchase with the company.

Product: Hercules C-130J

Need: Transport planes for "tactical lift"

Possible usage: Flying troops and smaller equipment in danger zones

Company: Lockheed Martin

Number: 17

Budget (aircraft and maintenance): $4.9-billion

Status: The government is in early-stage discussions with the company.

ChinookNeed: Medium- and heavy-lift helicopters

Possible usage: Transporting troops in Afghanistan

Company: Boeing

Number: 16

Budget (aircraft and maintenance): $4.7-billion

Status: The government is negotiating the purchase with the company.

Planned Purchases

Search-and-rescue airplanes

Possible usage: Searching for survivors after a crash in a mountainous area

Number: 15 to 19

Budget (aircraft and maintenance): $3-billion

Status: Waiting for cabinet approval to launch the process; currently, government and industry experts say Alenia's C-27J is the most serious contender.

Support ships for the navy

Possible usage: Transporting equipment across oceans and refuelling other ships

Number: 2

Budget (ship and maintenance): $2.9-billion

Status: Two companies have been hired at a cost of $25-million to propose designs for the new ships.

Medium-sized logistics trucks

Possible usage: Driving around people, equipment and supplies in a theatre of operations

Number: 2,300

Budget (vehicles and maintenance): $1.2-billion

Status: The government is planning to issue three requests for proposals (RFPs) in regards to this purchase in the spring and in the summer.

Source: DND

 
WOW!  Looks like Mr. Williams is a Bureaucrat who is concerned about his fat Bonus check at the end of the year and is trying to justify his own position.  A position we all know is only one of the many major delays and expenses in any major DND procurement plan.  The passing of the "Signing Deadline" for the C-17's is only one such example.
 
Sure sounds like bureaucrat whining to me....why buy something with only a year's work when we, the bureaucracy can stretch that out to 10-15 years.....
 
I was appauled at the line Mr Williams said to General Hillier 'Rick, your job is to define the requirements, and my job is to work the system and find the optimum solution to meet your needs."

Thats the bloody problem right there. End of story. BS Beaurocrats who decide what the military needs and not the soldiers. I think the military should do its own selection of equipment. When these bozos are responsible for procurement then we end up with second rate gear, 10 years too late.

All this crying and whining about "Civilian oversight" is more bullsh*t IMO. How can these people who do not use the equipment tell us what we need?

If a soldier says we need Chinooks, he means CHINOOKS. Not some paper idea of a concept aircraft due to make its maiden flight in 2015.

Too bad clowns like this do not understand that soldiers, airman and sailors put there lives on the line.

The way I see it is that the MND should give the military a procurement budget and let the experts select what they need.
 
It makes no sense to me how some Civy dude would have any knowledge of what we need and don't need......  I agree with most people on here.  If Ricky says he wants a turkey sandwich for lunch, it means he wants a turkey sandwich for lunch, he doesn't need a bunch of fellas sitting around a table drafting up proposals, organizing bidding processes because there is one company who promises to have a better turkey sandwich by supper time. 

If there is only one aircraft for the job then there is only ONE, if some other company (AIRBUS) whips out the Kleenex complaining that the process is flawed, then perhaps they should get off their collective a$$es and get to work...  Paper airplanes are useless to us.

This sounds like another attempt by the biased media to gain support for another party.
 
The chap in the bow-tie has got a book to sell.  To my knowledge he is one with the Norwegian Blue.  He is an EX-Bureaucrat.
 
On this very same subject, but posted by Edward Campbell in the topic on Speeding Up Procurement:

Edward Campbell said:
Here is more, again citing former DND ADM(Mat) Alan Williams, from today’s (10 Jan 07) Globe and Mail, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070110.wxdefence10/BNStory/National/home



I agree with Mr. Williams on two points:

1. It is, indeed, the responsibility of the civilian administration to decide how much of everything – money, men and materiel – and what sort of everything the CDS will be given in order to accomplish the tasks assigned by the government of the day.  The CDS can beg and plead and explain and bluster and threaten but, at the end of the dsay, a civilians decide; and

2. There ought to be “a body that would be responsible for major purchases from DND” – but I am certain that he and I would disagree on how it ought to work.

Everything else Mr. Williams says, according to Daniel Leblanc, anyway, is unadulterated rubbish.

The military has not “grabbed control of the procurement process from the hands of the department's civilian branch.”  It may be that some military operational requirements have constrained the level to which politicians and bureaucrats can muddy the procurement system to achieve political pork-barreling ends and it may be that Gen. Hillier’s public diplomacy has persuaded ministers and the PCO of the urgency of some procurement actions.  Neither equates to grabbing control of the process.

"These de facto sole-sourced contracts,” as Williams describes them, show only that DND’s operational and support system were allowed to rust out thanks to a combination of bureaucratic ineptitude – over which Mr. Williams presided – and M. Chrétien’s Trudeauistic political mischief.

If Gen. Hillier’s ‘civilian counterparts aren't exercising appropriate oversight these days’ then they have only themselves and their political masters to blame.  But, I do not believe that any such failure exists.  Kevin Lynch, the Clerk of the Privy Council, the most senior civil servant in the country, has (perhaps by silence) approved everything DND has done.  That is, as it must be, good enough for every bureaucrat in Canada.  Civilian oversight is alive and well – it is just that decades of neglect have some home to roost and Canada must now face the fact that there are limited choices when suitable kit is required on an urgent basis.

When Mr. Williams says: "There is no strong civilian authority in place to question or to challenge this," he is really saying, “I don’t have my old job with the big office and all the power lunches any more.”  I, for one, say: ”Thank heavens!”

There is a need for major reform to the national military procurement system.  It is a totally ineffective and inefficient system which, habitually, takes too long to acquire the equipment DND needs and then pays too much for it.  There are too many cooks; that’s why the broth is so often spoilt.

DND’s military equipment should be procured by an ‘arms length’ body.

If Canada can sell its military hardware through such an arms length agency - http://www.ccc.ca/eng/home.cfm then there is no reason why we cannot use a similar, sister agency to buy military hardware.

We need to get military procurement away from all of DND, Public Works and Government Services, Treasury Board, Industry Canada and a half dozen other government departments and agencies which, routinely, are involved in procurement decisions – almost always slowing the process and adding costs.  We need a system in which:

• The military defines its operational requirements – in performance terms;

• DND civilians confirm the military’ requirements meet approved defence policy objectives and, working with the military staff, secure financial resources from the government;

• Cabinet and parliament approve the requirements and budgets;

• The Treasury Board allocates the funds; and

• The ‘arms length’ works in the market to find, select and purchase equipment and facilities which meet DND’s requirements within the approved budget.
 
Well said by Edward Campbell.

I've put up a response of my own here: http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/01/from-department-of-stupefyingly-obvious.html
 
Or you can just got to Amazon.ca, buy the ex-bureaucrat's book, and find out how the world should run.  ::)
 
Perhaps you all should know that the reason Rescue Randy is so negative about the C27J Spartan and so very complimentary of the CASA 295 is because he is a paid employee of EADS-CASA. His boss, Martin Sefzig, is the director of EADS CASA Canadian Programmes as identified in the recent series of articles in the Globe and Mail. Their primary purpose is to lobby the government to procure the CASA 295. Their recent tactic is to feed the media incorrect information regarding the FWSAR project and other contending aircraft. Despite popular belief, lobbyists don't communicate to politicians directly, but instead prefer the manipulation of the press which is always hungry for controversy even when it doesn't really exist. Truth be damned because all is fair in commerce!

You are all being bamboozled by an industry lobbyist. Don't feel bad, this is not the only forum in which Rescue Randy is spreading his sales pitch. [non-related info removed by DS]. 95% of everything he posts is factual and correct. Unfortunately the other 5% is not. That last 5% almost always involves a manipulation of the facts to the detriment of all other aircraft but the CASA 295. Rescue Randy is using this site, and others, to manufacture grass-roots consent for his product while generating doubt for his competitors product.

Rescue Randy likes to create his own operational requirements for the FWSAR project and then post them on these types of forums as though they are legitimate fact. I can tell you that many of them are fabrications, which not coincidently, are always very unfavourable to the other aircraft. (Specifically, the search speeds information being provided here is inaccurate.)

Both the C27J and the CASA 295 have good points and bad points. The selected aircraft will not come without problems and limitations. This is certain.

The principle mandate of the FWSAR Project is to ENSURE that the selected aircraft provides Canadians with the Same or Better SAR Service compared to that which is currently delivered. As you can imagine replacing the SAR capability provided by the Buffalo and Hercules with a single type of aircraft will be very challenging. The Statement of Operational (SOR) requirements was developed to meet this challenge.  It is NOT a document purposefully written towards one aircraft at the exclusion of all others. It is what it is.....the manifestation of the Same or Better SAR Service to Canadians.

If the Government decides to reduce the level of SAR service from that currently provided then the SOR will be changed accordingly. The job of the lobbyist is to pressure the Government to make that decision. All the recent rhetoric about a "fair competitive" process is really just a manipulative ploy to give political justification for the reduction of the legitimate and defensable operational requirements.  A competitve process is the best procurement approach but you can't low-ball the requirements in order to get one. The requirements of the end-user must always trump the procurement process....no matter how loud lobbyists cry.







 
Back
Top