- Reaction score
- 4,344
- Points
- 1,160
DND has a mandate to do things, including SAR, and to be accountable for how well (including how cost effectively) those things are done. Industry Canada and PWGSC have somewhat different mandates that include a duty to ”support” Canadian industry.
We are seeing a classic conflict of mandates.
Let us assume that DND’s operational requirement is correctly stated – in performance terms (how high, how fast, how much room inside, etc) that can be readily justified as being minimum and reasonable standards. Even if DND’s requirements are “right” and fully justified they are perceived to be “unfair” to Canadian industry and our industrial leaders will do what they always do: try to change the specs to suit the product they have on the shelf rather than build a product that meets the specs. Politicians, being, largely, in the pockets of big business and/or big labour, will go along.
Civil servants are doing what their political masters require. DND's civil servants are trying to buy the aircraft that the Air Force says it needs, IC and PWGSC civil servants are trying to "support" Canadian industry by allowing more bidders into the process.
We are seeing a classic conflict of mandates.
Let us assume that DND’s operational requirement is correctly stated – in performance terms (how high, how fast, how much room inside, etc) that can be readily justified as being minimum and reasonable standards. Even if DND’s requirements are “right” and fully justified they are perceived to be “unfair” to Canadian industry and our industrial leaders will do what they always do: try to change the specs to suit the product they have on the shelf rather than build a product that meets the specs. Politicians, being, largely, in the pockets of big business and/or big labour, will go along.
Civil servants are doing what their political masters require. DND's civil servants are trying to buy the aircraft that the Air Force says it needs, IC and PWGSC civil servants are trying to "support" Canadian industry by allowing more bidders into the process.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/06/09/defence-plane-contract009.html
Defence Department under fire over $3B plane contract
The Defence Department has been forced to reconsider its requirements for choosing new search-and-rescue planes for the Canadian military amid accusations the process was rigged, CBC News has learned.
The department started searching for new aircraft to replace its aging fleet in 2002. Its requirements were so stringent that only one aircraft in the world — the C-27J by Italy's Alenia — could meet them, sources told the CBC.
That automatically excluded other credible competitors, they said.
For example, the C-295 — a plane made by the Spanish company EADS — was excluded because its cabin was 15 centimetres too short and its maximum cruising speed 12 knots too slow. Montreal-based Bombardier's Dash 8 was an option, but without a rear ramp it was out, too.
Industry Canada hit the brakes
However, the department is now re-examining those requirements after Industry Canada refused to let the procurement — worth $3 billion — proceed.
"So everyone is seized with that; what we're trying to do now is get everyone in the comfort zone as to how the bidding process will work, being as inclusive as possible without compromising on the requirements," Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Tuesday.
Typically, three government departments are involved in military procurement:
Defence decides what it needs.
Public Works designs the contracts.
Industry Canada makes sure the deal is good for Canadian industry by ensuring that companies here benefit — either through direct contracts to build parts or the planes themselves, or through promises by foreign companies to spend the value of the contract in this country.
A search of the government's lobbyist registry reveals the lengths some airplane companies went to push their case.
Turin-based Alenia, for example, hired several lobbyists who met 14 times with officials over the last year — including key staff in MacKay's office and other bureaucrats in charge of procurement. Lobbyists working for EADS recorded six meetings with government officials in the same time period.
Industry Canada's decision to call the requirements into question opens the door for Viking Air, a small aircraft manufacturer in Sidney, B.C.
Canadian contender builds updated classics
In 2004, the Vancouver Island company bought the rights to a series of iconic Canadian planes — the De Havilland Beaver, the Twin Otter and the Buffalo, among others. Now Viking is building updated versions of these planes and selling them around the world
"The biggest reason why these airframes have survived and people invest in them all the time is because they're so robust," said Robert Mauracher, Viking's vice-president.
The Buffalo, for example, has been one of the Canadian Forces' primary search-and-rescue aircraft for more than 40 years.
"The Buffalo is an excellent aircraft. It fits a certain market," Mauracher said. "It's a proven airframe. It's a good airframe, so we don't have to worry about that."
The redesigned Buffalo has modern engines, upgraded avionics and specialized search gear that ought to put it in the running for the lucrative defence contract, he added.
Mauracher is considering hiring lobbyists to help make the case for the Buffalo in Ottawa.
"They have a responsibility to make sure they get the equipment they need to do the job. All I'm saying is give us a chance to show you that what we have [that] may meet your needs. That's really what the bottom line is," he said.
Defence Department under fire over $3B plane contract
The Defence Department has been forced to reconsider its requirements for choosing new search-and-rescue planes for the Canadian military amid accusations the process was rigged, CBC News has learned.
The department started searching for new aircraft to replace its aging fleet in 2002. Its requirements were so stringent that only one aircraft in the world — the C-27J by Italy's Alenia — could meet them, sources told the CBC.
That automatically excluded other credible competitors, they said.
For example, the C-295 — a plane made by the Spanish company EADS — was excluded because its cabin was 15 centimetres too short and its maximum cruising speed 12 knots too slow. Montreal-based Bombardier's Dash 8 was an option, but without a rear ramp it was out, too.
Industry Canada hit the brakes
However, the department is now re-examining those requirements after Industry Canada refused to let the procurement — worth $3 billion — proceed.
"So everyone is seized with that; what we're trying to do now is get everyone in the comfort zone as to how the bidding process will work, being as inclusive as possible without compromising on the requirements," Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Tuesday.
Typically, three government departments are involved in military procurement:
Defence decides what it needs.
Public Works designs the contracts.
Industry Canada makes sure the deal is good for Canadian industry by ensuring that companies here benefit — either through direct contracts to build parts or the planes themselves, or through promises by foreign companies to spend the value of the contract in this country.
A search of the government's lobbyist registry reveals the lengths some airplane companies went to push their case.
Turin-based Alenia, for example, hired several lobbyists who met 14 times with officials over the last year — including key staff in MacKay's office and other bureaucrats in charge of procurement. Lobbyists working for EADS recorded six meetings with government officials in the same time period.
Industry Canada's decision to call the requirements into question opens the door for Viking Air, a small aircraft manufacturer in Sidney, B.C.
Canadian contender builds updated classics
In 2004, the Vancouver Island company bought the rights to a series of iconic Canadian planes — the De Havilland Beaver, the Twin Otter and the Buffalo, among others. Now Viking is building updated versions of these planes and selling them around the world
"The biggest reason why these airframes have survived and people invest in them all the time is because they're so robust," said Robert Mauracher, Viking's vice-president.
The Buffalo, for example, has been one of the Canadian Forces' primary search-and-rescue aircraft for more than 40 years.
"The Buffalo is an excellent aircraft. It fits a certain market," Mauracher said. "It's a proven airframe. It's a good airframe, so we don't have to worry about that."
The redesigned Buffalo has modern engines, upgraded avionics and specialized search gear that ought to put it in the running for the lucrative defence contract, he added.
Mauracher is considering hiring lobbyists to help make the case for the Buffalo in Ottawa.
"They have a responsibility to make sure they get the equipment they need to do the job. All I'm saying is give us a chance to show you that what we have [that] may meet your needs. That's really what the bottom line is," he said.
The 27J has not been selected by a single airforce for S & R. It has been selected for an in-theatre transport aircraft. Even the Italians didn't buy it for that purpose. Their Coast Guard use other aircraft. It is also a 30 year old design. Maybe a little competition isn't such a bad thing if the specs. are written correctly in the first place and not designed around a single airframe which the ones for this selection process were and that is the reason that it was thrown out.
- Reaction score
- 22,473
- Points
- 1,090
YZT580 said:
Have you seen the specs - What are the dimensions of standard SAR pallets? With gear on, how tall is a 95th percentile SAR tech? What range do we want to fly?
- Reaction score
- 4,344
- Points
- 1,160
This is, essentially, a public relations “war” between a small handful of defence contractors and three Conservative ministers: The Hon. Peter MacKay, The Hon. Tony Clement and The Hon. Christian Paradis. All three ministers have ambitions within the Conservative Party.
There may also be a bit of a feud between some very senior civil servants: in departments and, also, in the political centre (Privy Council Office (PCO), Finance and Treasury Board (TB)). A forthcoming change in PCO clerks might well spell changes (promotions and resignations) amongst deputy ministers. Ambition does focus the mind.
I, of course, have never seen the specs and even if I had I would be unqualified to comment on them – being neither a pilot/SAR specialist nor an aerospace engineer. I’m hoping – for the sake of the military’s overall credibility – that the Air Force can and will justify, line by line, the requirements that led to those specs. But I’m guessing that it will be an uphill struggle. I think the IC, PWGSC and industry press agents will find it easier to plant stories about jobs – or lack of same – in regions than to discuss airspeed requirements and time to search area and so on.
There may also be a bit of a feud between some very senior civil servants: in departments and, also, in the political centre (Privy Council Office (PCO), Finance and Treasury Board (TB)). A forthcoming change in PCO clerks might well spell changes (promotions and resignations) amongst deputy ministers. Ambition does focus the mind.
I, of course, have never seen the specs and even if I had I would be unqualified to comment on them – being neither a pilot/SAR specialist nor an aerospace engineer. I’m hoping – for the sake of the military’s overall credibility – that the Air Force can and will justify, line by line, the requirements that led to those specs. But I’m guessing that it will be an uphill struggle. I think the IC, PWGSC and industry press agents will find it easier to plant stories about jobs – or lack of same – in regions than to discuss airspeed requirements and time to search area and so on.
what loiter time is required, what is the minimum acceptable runway length, composition, transit time. There are a lot of issues that a ground based radar operator is not aware of[me] That is why I qualified my initial comment regarding the required specs. The specifications laid down for this aircraft appear to have taken the Alenia issued materiel and used it to structure a call for tender. Now if all those figures just happen to coincide with the optimal numbers for a Canadian S & R aircraft then go for it but I don't believe in that much coincidence especially when the aircraft in question was not designed for this purpose in the first place. Without that justification for each spec. the tender request looks like nothing more than the wishes of an individual who was smitten by C-27J. You could do the same thing to justify purchasing DC4s from Carl Mallard and equiping them for S & R or 415s from Bombardier.dapaterson said:
Politics not withstanding, you only have one chance in 25 years to get it right so if that right is the Spartan, prove it. That is what Industry Canada has requested.
- Reaction score
- 22,473
- Points
- 1,090
Industry Canada is more concerned with jobs in Canada than DND getting an aircraft that meets its requirements. Anyone ever seen an LSVW?
Bombardier, if they wish to be taken seriously, could at least do R&D to add a rear ramp - and then have a Dash-8 variant with easier cargo access they could market to their non-military clients.
Sounds to me like the SPAC did not go well.
Bombardier, if they wish to be taken seriously, could at least do R&D to add a rear ramp - and then have a Dash-8 variant with easier cargo access they could market to their non-military clients.
Sounds to me like the SPAC did not go well.
Maybe we should send some of the Industry Canada tall foreheads off on some military missions and see what it is like at the very pointy end of the stick they want to control where they can see and feel the life and death consequences of their decisions.
Couple of night SAR missions in the BC mountains - let's all pray for marginal weather to give them maximum butt clench factor and maybe as observers on a few anti IED patrols in the Sand Box.
Might give them a different insight into their "mandate".
Couple of night SAR missions in the BC mountains - let's all pray for marginal weather to give them maximum butt clench factor and maybe as observers on a few anti IED patrols in the Sand Box.
Might give them a different insight into their "mandate".
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
Bomb ardier has proven their total lack of "business sense" so often in the past; why should this be any different. They only exist because of Government subsidies, Grants, Contracts, and forgivable Loans.
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 430
YZT580 said:
Are our SAR requirements the same as Italy?
Sigh... what are we going to do when we have no Buffalos left? I guess they will reallocate H model Hercs to Comox. Maybe they should just give SAR away to Contractors, who can charge a fee for service. I wonder how many private pilots will keep Rescue insurance?
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
MND MacKay responds. Good on him, now let's see how much clout he has in Cabinet:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/06/10/mackay-plane010.html
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/06/10/mackay-plane010.html
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
This is incorrect.
Both the Hellenic Air Force (Greece) and the Italian Air Force use the C-27J for search and rescue.
Italy does have other aircraft for maritime patrol (I believe they are Alenia's ATR-42 and 72s) just like Canada has the Auroras for MPA.
This was in the press release on the 12th C-27J being delivered to the Italian Air Force:
"The C-27Js replace the AMI fleet of G.222s, from which they have inherited capability and excellent operating performances displayed in operations both in Italy and overseas for the transport of troops and materials, civilian protection, airdrop of cargo and paratroopers, fire fighting, and search and rescue."
The last line of this web page on the HAF's 354 Tactical Squadron (http://www.haf.gr/en/structure/units/day/units/354mtm.asp) says:
"The incorporation of the C-27J, an advanced technology aircraft, opens new ways to the tactical transportation section for the military operations. Also C-27J contributes to the public sector, with search and rescue, humanitarian aid, and medical evacuation missions."
As for the C-27J being a 30-year-old aircraft, that's like saying the C-130J Hercules or the Bombardier's Q-400 Dash-8 are 30 year-old aircraft, just because they have a similar shape to their predecessors.
The Buffalos and C-130H Hercs ARE 40 year old (plus) aircraft and the few still flying need replacing more urgently now than when this whole process started back in 2002.
Both the Hellenic Air Force (Greece) and the Italian Air Force use the C-27J for search and rescue.
Italy does have other aircraft for maritime patrol (I believe they are Alenia's ATR-42 and 72s) just like Canada has the Auroras for MPA.
This was in the press release on the 12th C-27J being delivered to the Italian Air Force:
"The C-27Js replace the AMI fleet of G.222s, from which they have inherited capability and excellent operating performances displayed in operations both in Italy and overseas for the transport of troops and materials, civilian protection, airdrop of cargo and paratroopers, fire fighting, and search and rescue."
The last line of this web page on the HAF's 354 Tactical Squadron (http://www.haf.gr/en/structure/units/day/units/354mtm.asp) says:
"The incorporation of the C-27J, an advanced technology aircraft, opens new ways to the tactical transportation section for the military operations. Also C-27J contributes to the public sector, with search and rescue, humanitarian aid, and medical evacuation missions."
As for the C-27J being a 30-year-old aircraft, that's like saying the C-130J Hercules or the Bombardier's Q-400 Dash-8 are 30 year-old aircraft, just because they have a similar shape to their predecessors.
The Buffalos and C-130H Hercs ARE 40 year old (plus) aircraft and the few still flying need replacing more urgently now than when this whole process started back in 2002.
D
Don2wing
Guest
Blogwatcher,
In Italy the Italian Air force may use the C-27 for search and rescue but the Corps of the Port Captaincies - Coast Guard is responsible for search and rescue. The Coast Guard run the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres, the boats, the helicopters and the planes (ATR 42s and Piaggio P.166). The air force is the backup group.
In Italy the Italian Air force may use the C-27 for search and rescue but the Corps of the Port Captaincies - Coast Guard is responsible for search and rescue. The Coast Guard run the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres, the boats, the helicopters and the planes (ATR 42s and Piaggio P.166). The air force is the backup group.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
Don2wing said:
I didn't say it was the only aircraft used but it is used and it is part of the mission in two of the countries which have purchased the aircraft, contrary to the original post. Even in Canada, we have military, Coast Guard and civilian agencies and volunteers who are all part of the search and rescue spectrum.
- Reaction score
- 22,473
- Points
- 1,090
Keep in mind, though, that Italy's SAR requirements are exponentially less than Canada's. Indeed, Europe as a whole is smaller...
Zoomie can correct me, but I'm fairly sure that the C27 is already a compromise. The "Gold standard" would be an increased Herc fleet. That would be one less airframe to cross train on. However, the specs was settled on as a suitable minimum compromise between the current capabilities of the mixed herc and buff SAR fleet, with economy gained from the reduction of engines and fuel. there is a very good presentation on a SAR mission from Winnipeg to Alert, allowing minimum loiter time, and recover to closest airport within a SAR crew day. The C27 can do it, though it would be no problem for a herc. A C295 needs to be pre positioned in the North, ie new SAR base, when 90% of missions occur close to 49 parallel, ie where people live.
