FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[aesop081]

on how to run the competition.

Which competition. Most of the programs you mentioned were sole-source, no ?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yes, such a coincidence, I wonder if there is a pattern?  8)

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... scheduled for 11 Apr 12 in attached bid document update.

 

[OOTBthinker]

I thought this article by Murray Brewster was somewhat interesting and revealing at the same time:

National Defence was close to getting a green light from cabinet to buy new fixed-wing search-and-rescue planes three times since 2007, but the $3.1-billion plan has been shot down by objections from other departments, say senior defence sources.

Frustration among senior defence and military officials over the Conservative government's inability to move forward with the project to replace nearly 50-year-old C-115 Buffalos and three-decade-old C-130-H Hercules transports was palpable Friday.

Potential bidders were informed this week that a formal tender call has been put off until next year, raising questions about whether the continued delays could potentially cost lives.

The Buffalos reach their end of their service life in less than three years and face severe parts shortages.

Defence sources said Industry Canada has raised concern about the regional industrial benefits, and Public Works questioned the process for selecting the new search plane.

"It's been close three times, but it's been pulled back three times," said one senior official.

The program, originally announced by the Martin government, has been stuck for nearly a decade.

The Harper government had been hoping for an announcement this summer to highlight the plan. But information released Friday shows the project will still be deep in the consultation and discussion phase.

Public Works released a notice, asking prospective bidders to come forward with letters of interest and said that the first in a series on information workshops on the program will take place on April 11.

Lt.-Gen. Andre Deschamps, chief of the air staff, said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press that once formal proposals are received they'll face further review against the air force's "criteria for mission success."

But the fact it will take another year to get to that stage worries Liberal defence critic John McKay.

"I don't get it," he said Friday. "It's not as if this procurement hasn't been around for years, decades in fact. And I, for the life of me, can't figure out why this is such a complicated procurement."

There were allegations five years ago that the air force had rigged the bid criteria to favour the Italian-built C-27J Spartan, prompting defence minister to order an arms-length review by the National Research Council.

But McKay said the issue has been studied and consulted in detail, and it's time to open up to formal tender.

It's a matter of public safety, he said.

"The longer this goes, the greater the likelihood that something bad is going to happen," McKay said.

He warned the availability of fixed-wing search planes could decline, despite the best efforts of mechanics, and a potentially tragic situation could planes are not around when they're needed.

The Conservatives have for years made political hay over the Liberals inability and unwillingness to replace the air force's aging Sea King helicopters when they were in power.

McKay said the Harper government has lost its bragging rights thanks to the search plane dilemma.

Read it on Global News: Global BC | Search plane replacement vexes Tories, as more industry consultations announced

Who's leading this government? When people talk about bringing about changes to the defence procurement process, this is what they are talking about; too many departments having a say in the decision.

 

[DavidAkin]

Hi folks - **Reporter alert** (See my profile)

Looking to chat with current/former SAR techs.

You can be on-the-record or off-the-record but mostly I hope to pick the brain of someone who's jumped out of the back of a plane with a 100 pound pack on their back.

Call or write: My contact info at www.davidakin.com

Thanks!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

David-

Generally, the smart SARTechs jump out of planes with a parachute on their backs- not a rucksack.

(sorry- couldn't resist) 

Good luck with your story.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some of the latest - one academic’s answer to replacing the old Buffalo search and rescue planes – buy new Buffaloes!

…. The good news is that the Canadian government now has one last chance to solve the immediate problem: By quickly replacing the Buffalos with low-cost, Canadian-made planes that can fly ultra slow. The obvious option is to replace old Buffalos with new Buffalos. Victoria-based Viking Air has purchased the designs for the early line of “de Havilland” aircraft and is already building and selling new Twin Otters. Viking would equip the new Buffalos with the same state-of-the-art Pratt & Whitney Canada engines that power the Dash-8 Q400s that Air Canada and Porter Airlines fly. Alternatively, Montreal-based Bombardier could produce Dash-8 Q400s modified for search-and-rescue with a hydraulic ramp at the back of the plane ….

And DavidAkin's take of where the process stands:

…. with the possibility that the search-and-rescue purchase process could be tied up in the bureaucracy for yet another year (followed by delivery of planes years after that!) the government may be ready to slice through this Gordian Knot and simply turn to our American allies to pick up most of their fleet of C-27 Spartans. In this case, America’s misfortune — the country is broke and is shutting down several military programs — may be Canada’s good fortune. Some of the American Spartans are already flying, while a handful are in the final stage of being built. Canada could end up getting these new and nearly new planes for 50 cents on the dollar, one official said. Canada’s air force generals think the Spartan has all the right specs ….

 

[GAP]

David missed the part about the manufacturer saying they won't provide parts/service?

 

[The Bread Guy]

David missed the part about the manufacturer saying they won't provide parts/service?

To be fair, this comes up later in the article:

.... Now here’s one of the weird wrinkles that could gum up this deal: The Spartans’ manufacturer, Italy’s Alenia Aermacchi, is dead set against the U.S. selling off its fleet of C-27s to Canada or anyone else (Australia and some other countries might be interested), going so far as to threaten that it will not provide parts and support to any country that buys the used planes.

No one in the industry can recall a manufacturer ever making such a threat, but Canadian officials have some ideas about helping Alenia change its mind. And after that, Canada’s generals and politicians will have to fight off the bureaucracy and Alenia’s competitors.

But given the fact that Canada’s search-and-rescue teams would get the gear they need without waiting another decade, and that Canada would get it for cheap, the politicians and generals would be crazy not to fight to buy America’s Spartans.

 

[aesop081]

David missed the part about the manufacturer saying they won't provide parts/service?

No mention of the fact that the US has not decided what they will do with the C-27s already in use. Some parts of the ANG are chomping at the bit to get them.

 

[Zoomie]

Nice to see you back on these forums David! 

I'm disheartened to see the Viking myth perpetuated by the MSM.  They may own the original plans to the DHC-5 but that doesn't mean that they are in a position to build any airplanes any time soon.  I've beaten this subject to death and may be accused of being anti-Viking - which I am most definitely not - I'm just interested in replacing and upgrading our FWSAR capabilities not relegating ourselves to an old/slow/unpressurized design that really does not meet the requirements of modern-day First World Nation SAR.

 

[YZT580]

I'm just interested in replacing and upgrading our FWSAR capabilities not relegating ourselves to an old/slow/unpressurized design

Yet you continue to trumpet the C27.  It too dates back to a slow unpressurized aircraft from the 60's and it has been rejected as an SAR machine by just about everyone.  Viking says they can produce a higher speed pressurized version of the DH5  that can still turn around in the canyons.  If they can, shouldn't they be at least asked to show us what they have?  But more than that, SAR in Canada needs a total review.  Our resources are too widely scattered, too few, and, at least as far as TR is concerned, they are in the wrong places.  We watched a few years back as a kid in a canoe died whilst waiting for a helicopter from Trenton fly the length of Lake Ontario to pick him up off Grimsby.  Well, maybe a few more than a few years but it is something you don't forget and it was not necessary so you might say I have personal reasons for agreeing with you: we need the right equipment in the right places.  The C27 may not be that right equipment.  I am not convinced.

 

[The Bread Guy]

A bit of clarification from an update to the bid document (update attached):

.... Question #2:  What is an OEM?

Clarification to Question #2 :  In the context of this Project, an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) is the aircraft. Manufacturer.

Question #3:  Does it rule out an ASD provider of new aircraft?

Clarification to Question #3:  The FWSAR solicitation objective is to find the best capability-based solution for procuring and operating new aircraft including the associated In-Service Support. Additional details on the procurement strategy will be shared at the April 11 workshop and on the FWSAR website.  However, a complete Alternative Service Delivery Solution does not form part of the chosen procurement strategy ....

 

[kj_gully]

so  YZT-you think a slower plane will be better? New ( imagined) buffalo will only be pressurized in the cockpit- the work of SAR Happens in the back... sorry pilots, the bulk of the physical work. the dispatching of crew and equipment is low altitude, but preparing the equipment and personnel often takes place at altitudes where pressurization or oxygen is required- and trust me trying to rig equipment while tethered to an oxygen mask is not fun, easy or efficient. Maybe big picture wise- more commonality is the answer? bigger pool of crew, and spare parts? C27 shares the same engine and some other parts as Ci30 J  but maybe more c130J is an even better tradeoff? maintaining a mixed fleet is a big training burden that a leaner meaner RCAF can do without.

 

[YZT580]

No, I don't want to put the back crew on O2 and  no I don't believe slower is better.  If I were putting a fleet together it would not be a one size fits all purchase.  It doesn't work.  There would definitely be a requirement for additional C130s.  Aircraft placement should be YYB instead of YTR possibly YXE,  Yellowknife, Gander or Goose and Comox.  YYB & YXE would centralise the positioning and provide better and faster coverage than the current squadron placements.  Churchill would be good but getting people to accept a posting there would be a bitch.  There is also a need for a station on the Lower St. Lawrence but dollars will not permit proper deployment.  The only place a low and slow aircraft is needed is in the Pacific Mountain region so the requirement for a DH5 performance is limited to that and possibly locally based in the north with full time northern crews to man them on a 60 minute call out or something like that.  Still be faster than freighting a Herc in from the south.  As for the Spartan, the herc offers more flexibility and reduces the fleet complexity.  We don't need a intertheatre freighter such as the C27 except for SAR and the C27 can't do anything more than the C130.   

. 

 

[kj_gully]

ok. so you don't want the back end crew on oxygen, but want the mountainous region ( higher altitudes required for terrain clearance) to get an unpressurized aircraft? They get the same as they got. no gain. Give up on low slow visual search and get a modern aircraft with sensors. If Comox  get faster pressurized aircraft, maybe they could expand their SRR and actually enhance SAR coverage in Canada?

 

[YZT580]

I have already stated that the role for low and slow is limited but unfortunately it is still there.  We certainly don't need 15 of them.  We are in need of new a/c and I believe my previous post suggests the C130 would be better than the C27.  We are also in need of some careful thought being put into where these resources are based.  In early VietNam days the greatest sound to the guys on the ground was not the igniting afterburners of the fast movers but the sound of the original Puff (a C47).  When they heard that sound they knew they were covered.  Faster is not always better and new ideas need to demonstrate that they are better than old.    Electronics are not the perfect answer.  You still need the mark 1 eyeball and a slow stable platform from which to make it work.

 

[kj_gully]

slow stable platform- like say a Cormorant?

 

[YZT580]

slow stable platform- like say a Cormorant?

The Cormorant is another old design and is plagued with the same problems as the DH5: too slow and too far to go and although we have been packing the hours on the ones we currently own have they really stood up as well as say the old seakings or labradors did?  Again, part of the solution may come down to positioning but we do need something with a little more speed. 

 

[OOTBthinker]

Fast versus slow...

The V-22 offers both, and more; no need for long runways and in certain situations it could even do the job of the Cormorant.