FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Kirkhill]

The sensor suite has always been what is trotted out as the reason the aircraft can have less range and on STA time because they can locate the missing pers that much quicker. I was doubtful of this until I spoke to someone who was on a recent SAREX and saw the capabilities first hand. They found the primary and secondary targets well before any other of the airframes competing, if they found them at all, and a third target that was meant to be a surprise for the SAR techs on the ground and thought to be unseen from the sky.

Is that sensor suite available to support ground forces in tactical situations? On any platform currently in service or planned?

 

[dapaterson]

Is that sensor suite available to support ground forces in tactical situations? On any platform currently in service or planned?

Sensor capabilities are not generally intended for public consumption.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Bidders offered a complete solution; I don't know what sensor suite the C27J consortium was offering.

AI responded with:

The C-27J consortium offered Canada several sensor systems for the C-27J Spartan aircraft. These included the TacView Portable Mission Display, SureSight Enhanced Vision System, CMA-9000 Flight Management System, and CMA-5024 GPS Landing System Sensor. Additionally, the bid included surface-search radar, electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors, and a C4ISR suite

 

[captloadie]

Is that sensor suite available to support ground forces in tactical situations? On any platform currently in service or planned?

Given that the Kingfisher, and its sensor suite, was procured only as a SAR asset, the only tactical situations that would have been contemplated in supporting would have been ground SAR, and SAR techs on the ground.

 

[daftandbarmy]

First operational Kingfisher lob... apparently.

Looks like a great jump platform... I'd even give it a go!

76K views · 472 reactions | Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump yesterday afternoon, rescuing

Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump...

www.facebook.com

 

[YZT580]

First operational Kingfisher lob... apparently.

Looks like a great jump platform... I'd even give it a go!

76K views · 472 reactions | Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump yesterday afternoon, rescuing

Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump...

www.facebook.com

pardon my skepticism but the cormorant could have touched down and established a base site without any need for the jump seems more like an attempt to prove the dam thing works than a justifiable pat on the back. This is definitely not to denigrate any of the efforts of the whole team but the airplane has still not proven its capabilities. (FLAME AWAY)

 

[KevinB]

First operational Kingfisher lob... apparently.

Looks like a great jump platform... I'd even give it a go!

76K views · 472 reactions | Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump yesterday afternoon, rescuing

Pilot Rescued After Crash Northeast of Prince George A Royal Canadian Air Force CC-295 Kingfisher Search and Rescue crew successfully executed the aircraft’s first operational parachute jump...

www.facebook.com

Admittedly at first I thought the Kingfisher crew had to jump due to aircraft issues.


Give the size of the DZ I second @YZT580 ’s comment that the Cormorant would have been the better platform.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Admittedly at first I thought the Kingfisher crew had to jump due to aircraft issues.


Give the size of the DZ I second @YZT580 ’s comment that the Cormorant would have been the better platform.

Luckily, no balloon static line involved

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

They used to do these rescues exactly the same way in the days of the Buffalo's: The aircraft parachuted SAR Techs, who would stabilize the patient and get him/her to a proper extraction point where the Cormorant or Labrador's (in the old days) would carry out the extraction.

My understanding is that the whole process is done this way to provide fastest possible care.

A Cormorant was used in this case, but could it have made it to the crash site as fast as the Kingfisher? If not, then, it was a proper way of carrying out the rescue. And BZ for the first Operational Jump.

 

[YZT580]

They used to do these rescues exactly the same way in the days of the Buffalo's: The aircraft parachuted SAR Techs, who would stabilize the patient and get him/her to a proper extraction point where the Cormorant or Labrador's (in the old days) would carry out the extraction.

My understanding is that the whole process is done this way to provide fastest possible care.

A Cormorant was used in this case, but could it have made it to the crash site as fast as the Kingfisher? If not, then, it was a proper way of carrying out the rescue. And BZ for the first Operational Jump.

no arguments regarding your expertise and comments but having the victim already airborne in the RCMP chopper takes a lot of the immediacy out of the whole operation.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

no arguments regarding your expertise and comments but having the victim already airborne in the RCMP chopper takes a lot of the immediacy out of the whole operation.

Three things:

1) I don't know if the RCMP helicopter had the necessary range;

But,

2) I know that the RCMP helicopter does not carry the life support equipment found on a Cormorant; nor,
3) do the RCMP officers on that helicopter have the medical knowledge of the SAR Techs.

So, without knowing all the particulars (neither one of us does), it is difficult to judge whether there would have been another - better? - course of action available.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not to mention the space for a immobilized patient.

 

[YZT580]

Not to mention the space for a immobilized patient.

Crap, he was already on board and it appears the cormorant arrived within a few minutes of the RCMP.. They did well, all of them, but a major event requiring jumping the paramedics in is questionable logic but great publicity

 

[KevinB]

They used to do these rescues exactly the same way in the days of the Buffalo's: The aircraft parachuted SAR Techs, who would stabilize the patient and get him/her to a proper extraction point where the Cormorant or Labrador's (in the old days) would carry out the extraction.

My understanding is that the whole process is done this way to provide fastest possible care.

A Cormorant was used in this case, but could it have made it to the crash site as fast as the Kingfisher? If not, then, it was a proper way of carrying out the rescue. And BZ for the first Operational Jump.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that in the case of critical incidents that time is a factor. So there I can see and support a SAR Tech jump in to provide immediate care.

However this case seems to me a PR stunt

 

[Blackadder1916]

And they jump again from the Kingfisher, this time at night. PR stunt?

Rescuers parachute into B.C. canyon at night to save man crushed by horse

Military search-and-rescue technicians parachuted into a remote canyon in northern British Columbia early Wednesday morning after a hunter was crushed and seriously injured by the horse he was riding.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[YZT580]

And they jump again from the Kingfisher, this time at night. PR stunt?

Rescuers parachute into B.C. canyon at night to save man crushed by horse

Military search-and-rescue technicians parachuted into a remote canyon in northern British Columbia early Wednesday morning after a hunter was crushed and seriously injured by the horse he was riding.

www.ctvnews.ca

definitely not. However a 16 hour round trip mission certainly demonstrates how big a task SAR is. And 8 hours is a long time to wait for an ambulance when you are hurting. Perhaps we should use some of that 5% to expand our fleet and add more bases

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

This is Canada. Anything North of where 90% of us live will always involve long wait time. Unfortunately.

 

[YZT580]

This is Canada. Anything North of where 90% of us live will always involve long wait time. Unfortunately.

Maybe develop an Arctic Air Force reserve squadron equipped with about a dozen DH6 aircraft with special emphasis on advanced first aid i.e. similar to ambulance attendants or better. Scatter them in pairs throughout the north in six major towns. With tundra tires it can land just about anywhere, its cruise speed is the same as our helicopters and they would be half a day closer than any of our current plans. Could at least provide shelter, warmth, and company if nothing else while the wait is on for the Kingfisher or whatever.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . 8 hours is a long time to wait for an ambulance when you are hurting . . .

And so is 15 minutes (or 45 minutes).

pardon my skepticism but the cormorant could have touched down and established a base site without any need for the jump . .

no arguments regarding your expertise and comments but having the victim already airborne in the RCMP chopper takes a lot of the immediacy out of the whole operation.

In the CBC radio interview the AC and one of the SAR Techs who jumped provided a few more details that weren't in any of the print stories that I read. Originally thinking that the Kingfisher and the Cormorant had launched simultaneously from Comox, my assumption had been that the speed advantage of the fixed wing could have placed it near the crash location 20/25 minutes quicker than the helicopter. However, the AC said they had been in Victoria and refueled when they were tasked, also as they approached the crash location the Cormorant was 45 minutes behind them. There was weather closing in so they quickly (thanks to the enhanced sensor suite) decided to jump and set up on the ground.

I've never been a fan of those who want to "scoop and scoot". Until someone has experience with how long it actually takes to assess, stabilize and package a casualty for prolonged (1 hour plus) transport, most underestimate the time needed. Even when my assumption was that the SAR team that jumped provided a 15 minutes advantage on starting care of the crash victim, I would have considered it justifiable considering the possibility of the type of injuries that the casualty could have (c-spine, abd bleed, chest crush would be major things I'd be looking for). And though I was never SAR and it's been 38 years since my last airevac, my preference was to do a complete exam without the noise and vibration of running ac engines.