FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[ytz]

Interesting article on Kingfisher in the latest edition of Skies magazine. The sensor suite seems quite impressive.

Skies Magazine

issues.skiesmag.com

My first ever project management job as a young Captain was to help write specs for the FWSAR sensor suite! Happy to have played a small part. Even though I wish it was on a different airframe.

At this point, I just wish we'd get a few more aircraft and open a Fixed Wing SAR base in Gander. And maybe even one in Yellowknife. The current fleet is the absolute bare minimum. We can and should expand it.

 

[ytz]

Spain has joined Canada in fielding a SAR version of the C295. I wonder how much of their design leaned on lessons learned from the Kingfisher development?

Spain’s first C295 SAR plane begins testing in Seville

Airbus Defence and Space has successfully carried out the first flight of Spain’s new C295 Search and Rescue (SAR) aircraft, marking a major step in the country’s fleet modernization effort. According to Airbus Defence, the aircraft took off from Seville,

defence-blog.com

They use the 295 for everything. Including Maritime Patrol. Domestically built airplane.

 

[YZT580]

My first ever project management job as a young Captain was to help write specs for the FWSAR sensor suite! Happy to have played a small part. Even though I wish it was on a different airframe.

At this point, I just wish we'd get a few more aircraft and open a Fixed Wing SAR base in Gander. And maybe even especially one in Yellowknife. The current fleet is the absolute bare minimum. We can and should expand it.

That is better. The idea of having SAR having to transit thousands of miles to reach an area where the services will definitely be needed far more than Southern Ontario is just plain dumb. Gander is a good choice too although St; John would work almost as well.

 

[ytz]

The sensor suite has always been what is trotted out as the reason the aircraft can have less range and on STA time because they can locate the missing pers that much quicker. I was doubtful of this until I spoke to someone who was on a recent SAREX and saw the capabilities first hand. They found the primary and secondary targets well before any other of the airframes competing, if they found them at all, and a third target that was meant to be a surprise for the SAR techs on the ground and thought to be unseen from the sky.

To a point. When planning this, we basically spec'd the radar to be able to pick up a medium sized boat capsized at 100 NM out in a certain sea state. The idea was that they can pick up the target en route and get the SAR Techs ready, then simply transition to 1-2 passes for wind check before letting them jump. Heck, if the precision drop system panned out, they would have theoretically not even needed the wind check, could release the SAR tech through cloud. Kinda like Herc JPADS.

Zero search time if it could be helped. I don't know if it happened, but we even looked at software that could scan the water with the EO/IR for specific colour, like the International Orange of a life jacket (with a lot less range). That was a stretch goal in my time. But with AI today....

The problem, however, cool as the sensors are, is that at the edge of our AOR, this airplane is still tight for endurance. Would be nice to simply make these airplanes AAR capable. And add two more FWSAR detachments in Gander and Yellowknife to substantially improve endurance at the edges of our AOR.

 

[ytz]

That is better. The idea of having SAR having to transit thousands of miles to reach an area where the services will definitely be needed far more than Southern Ontario is just plain dumb. Gander is a good choice too although St; John would work almost as well.

We had decades of data on SAR calls. It was analyzed by DRDC CORA. Highest demand was actually the Great Lakes, Lake Winnipeg, East Coast and Pacific. Last two because of maritime industries like fishing. First two because people sometimes get drunk and go fishing after work. Our squadrons are based accordingly. The only gap was really Gander. And somewhat Yellowknife. The Twotter does do some stuff up there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One of the things we learned in the CCG, is that if you spend time in a area, you will get more calls than you expected. If the locals know there are no federal resources in the area, they won't bother to call the RCC, but instead go and take care of it themselves, therefore not being entered as a stat.

 

[ytz]

One of the things we learned in the CCG, is that if you spend time in a area, you will get more calls than you expected. If the locals know there are no federal resources in the area, they won't bother to call the RCC, but instead go and take care of it themselves, therefore not being entered as a stat.

We considered this too. But it's a simple reality that accidents tend to happen where there's people. The coasts, Winnipeg and Great Lakes are also where the majority of Canadians live close to water.

The average Canuck is not ambitious enough to go explore the Arctic in a canoe. They are just wealthy and dumb enough to be able to mix drinking and boating. Also not coincidental that SAR calls go up in the late afternoon in the Summer, right around the time people get home from work and crack a cold one.

 

[YZT580]

We considered this too. But it's a simple reality that accidents tend to happen where there's people. The coasts, Winnipeg and Great Lakes are also where the majority of Canadians live close to water.

The average Canuck is not ambitious enough to go explore the Arctic in a canoe. They are just wealthy and dumb enough to be able to mix drinking and boating. Also not coincidental that SAR calls go up in the late afternoon in the Summer, right around the time people get home from work and crack a cold one.

So, the local, working out of Rankin Inlet plans his trips and carries the safety gear so only once or twice a year he needs help. He is a responsible citizen. He activates his transponder and 16 hours later SAR comes into view. Me, on the other hand, fire up the skiff, grab a six pack and my rod and head out promptly running my boat up onto a rock just outside of Gravenhurst. I activate my transponder and the OPP, local rescue folks and SAR are all within 30 minutes. I would say your priorities are wrong. Catering to the wealthy and dumb Canadian is an unnecessary expense that penalizes the people who really need you. There are enough resources within 3 hours of TR to completely replace the military contingent whereas that 3 hours, should you re-locate to North Bay or Churchill (5 hours) or the Sault would make a hell of difference to the responsible person with Churchill being the only one of those locations that could be considered remote.

 

[lenaitch]

Where to deploy limited resources will always be a balance between call volumes driven by population and the fact that, as a service provider, you still have a responsibility to somehow adequate serve the entire population. When I was still gainfully employed, we did a study of the response times and call volumes of a wide range of specialized police emergency services. It was consistent that the further a location was from a particular service, the less it was activated. When something is multiple hours away, locals and local resources often find other ways to solve their problem.

It even came up at my first promotional board. They consisted of scenario questions and when I being debriefed, they (mostly southern Ontario staff) made a comment that northerners seldom included a tactical team, helicopter, etc. My opinion was services that were multiple hours away weren't top of mind when you are trying to solve some situation.

Emergency services, by their nature, tend to be inefficient; you want them reasonably available when needed. The challenge is having expensive people and kit proximate to remote areas yet still remaining relevant, trained, keen, etc.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

It is useful, at this point, to remind everyone, that the CAF is responsible to handle to two types of SAR events:

Events involving aircraft (aviation SAR)

Events involving boats and ships (maritime SAR)

Events that involve lost hikers (Ground SAR) or medevacs (that aren’t caused by aviation or maritime events) are the responsibility of the Provinces to solve.

 

[Blackadder1916]

It is useful, at this point, to remind everyone, that the CAF is responsible to handle to two types of SAR events:

Events involving aircraft (aviation SAR)

Events involving boats and ships on waters of federal responsibility, i.e., oceans, Great Lakes, St Lawrence Seaway and connecting waterways (maritime SAR)

Events that involve lost hikers or boating on inland waterways and lakes (Ground SAR) or medevacs (that aren’t caused by aviation or maritime events) are the responsibility of the Provinces to solve.

A slight addendum

 

[dapaterson]

With the integration of the CCG into DND, maybe all the dedicated SAR assets in the RCAF can be transferred out of the CAF into the CCG for unity of command. Since the CAF doesn't do CSAR.

 

[daftandbarmy]

With the integration of the CCG into DND, maybe all the dedicated SAR assets in the RCAF can be transferred out of the CAF into the CCG for unity of command. Since the CAF doesn't do CSAR.

RCAF be like

 

[quadrapiper]

It is useful, at this point, to remind everyone, that the CAF is responsible to handle to two types of SAR events:

Events involving aircraft (aviation SAR)

Events involving boats and ships (maritime SAR)

Events that involve lost hikers (Ground SAR) or medevacs (that aren’t caused by aviation or maritime events) are the responsibility of the Provinces to solve.

Seems to be tasked to GSAR support, though. From my time with Cowichan SAR I remember a medevac (wherein a firefighter with the subject got their arm broken by flying crap) and a Buffalo dropping flares for a night search, and think there were a couple more.

 

[Kirkhill]

Where to deploy limited resources will always be a balance between call volumes driven by population and the fact that, as a service provider, you still have a responsibility to somehow adequate serve the entire population. When I was still gainfully employed, we did a study of the response times and call volumes of a wide range of specialized police emergency services. It was consistent that the further a location was from a particular service, the less it was activated. When something is multiple hours away, locals and local resources often find other ways to solve their problem.

It even came up at my first promotional board. They consisted of scenario questions and when I being debriefed, they (mostly southern Ontario staff) made a comment that northerners seldom included a tactical team, helicopter, etc. My opinion was services that were multiple hours away weren't top of mind when you are trying to solve some situation.

Emergency services, by their nature, tend to be inefficient; you want them reasonably available when needed. The challenge is having expensive people and kit proximate to remote areas yet still remaining relevant, trained, keen, etc.

Is the answer to post the response units at in the low density zones proximate to the high density zones so that low density call out distances are shortened but high density callouts still get serviced?

Lets say that instead of Southerners getting 30 minute service and Northerners getting 4 hour service everybody got 2 hour service. As has been pointed out Southerners have alternate local means. Northerners don't. And we want to encourage Northerners to stay put and attract Southerners to join them.

In the South, shouldn't the RCAF be the last resort rather than the first? At sea and in the North they are the primary response if not the only response.

.....

WRT the statistical analysis of calls I am reminded of the USAAC study of aircraft losses where they counted bullet holes in returning aircraft. What they didn't count was the bullet holes in those that didn't make it back.

Survivorship bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Blackadder1916]

Seems to be tasked to GSAR support, though. From my time with Cowichan SAR I remember a medevac (wherein a firefighter with the subject got their arm broken by flying crap) and a Buffalo dropping flares for a night search, and think there were a couple more.

Search and Rescue - Canada.ca

March 2020 - Essential information to familiarize the Minister with the Department.

www.canada.ca

Canadian Armed Forces and Canadian Coast Guard resources may also assist in ground search and rescue efforts, medical evacuations, and other humanitarian incidents if requested by provincial authorities. The Canadian Rangers will aid in ground search and rescue upon request in the remote regions in which they operate.

In the same manner that soldiers, sailors and the other guys fill sand bags when the creek rises, so too does SAR resources when requested. At one time the provinces used to be billed - whether they paid their bills is another matter. Years and years ago, when we were looking at building a new base hospital at Summerside (obviously this was before the decision to close the base was even being considered), one of the points that came up was staffing levels. Since the nurses and medics (and some of the specialized eqpt ) who staffed aeromedevacs came from the bhosp, I had to look into the stats. The majority of evac flights originating from Summerside were requests from the province for "emergency" transfer to Halifax hospitals (neonatal and paeds were the most common). The province was billed for each mission, but for the several years that I reviewed, they did not pay the bills and were usually forgiven each year.

 

[DBNSG]

Search and Rescue - Canada.ca

March 2020 - Essential information to familiarize the Minister with the Department.

www.canada.ca

In the same manner that soldiers, sailors and the other guys fill sand bags when the creek rises, so too does SAR resources when requested. At one time the provinces used to be billed - whether they paid their bills is another matter. Years and years ago, when we were looking at building a new base hospital at Summerside (obviously this was before the decision to close the base was even being considered), one of the points that came up was staffing levels. Since the nurses and medics (and some of the specialized eqpt ) who staffed aeromedevacs came from the bhosp, I had to look into the stats. The majority of evac flights originating from Summerside were requests from the province for "emergency" transfer to Halifax hospitals (neonatal and paeds were the most common). The province was billed for each mission, but for the several years that I reviewed, they did not pay the bills and were usually forgiven each year.

That's interesting as Nova Scotia now provides the patient transfer service through their Helicopters and Fixed wing leased fleet .

 

[Blackadder1916]

That's interesting as Nova Scotia now provides the patient transfer service through their Helicopters and Fixed wing leased fleet .

My experience is from the 1980s.

 

[lenaitch]

Seems to be tasked to GSAR support, though. From my time with Cowichan SAR I remember a medevac (wherein a firefighter with the subject got their arm broken by flying crap) and a Buffalo dropping flares for a night search, and think there were a couple more.

I recall a very few times in Ontario when RCC assisted with an inland/GSAR incident. Typically, it was when hoisting was required. OPP helicopters aren't equipped or certified for hoisting and I'm not aware of any civilian assets that are. As I recall. the response was much faster than the traditional 'aid of the civil power' route but I don't know the mechanism or channels.

Is the answer to post the response units at in the low density zones proximate to the high density zones so that low density call out distances are shortened but high density callouts still get serviced?

Lets say that instead of Southerners getting 30 minute service and Northerners getting 4 hour service everybody got 2 hour service. As has been pointed out Southerners have alternate local means. Northerners don't. And we want to encourage Northerners to stay put and attract Southerners to join them.

In the South, shouldn't the RCAF be the last resort rather than the first? At sea and in the North they are the primary response if not the only response.

The reality is the high incident areas imply population density and positioning emergency assets further away would politically unpalatable and possibly seen as a liability risk. It could also raise costs since multiple responses from further away would be more costly.

It is also a matter of jurisdiction. As pointed out, federal and provincial responsibilities differ.

Expensive and highly specialized assets simply can't be everywhere. It might be nice to have a SAR base in Iqaluit but they will be sitting on the hands getting rusty while the world moves around them.

 

[Kirkhill]

I recall a very few times in Ontario when RCC assisted with an inland/GSAR incident. Typically, it was when hoisting was required. OPP helicopters aren't equipped or certified for hoisting and I'm not aware of any civilian assets that are. As I recall. the response was much faster than the traditional 'aid of the civil power' route but I don't know the mechanism or channels.



The reality is the high incident areas imply population density and positioning emergency assets further away would politically unpalatable and possibly seen as a liability risk. It could also raise costs since multiple responses from further away would be more costly.

It is also a matter of jurisdiction. As pointed out, federal and provincial responsibilities differ.

Expensive and highly specialized assets simply can't be everywhere. It might be nice to have a SAR base in Iqaluit but they will be sitting on the hands getting rusty while the world moves around them.

Which is why I was wondering about splitting the difference and moving the centres to Yellowknife and Churchill for example.