Gas training in CF?

[gun plumber]

I was told that if you put rocks in you boots before the 13k you would'nd get blisters.........
Does that sound stupid to anyone?
If your Crse Wo or Section Cmdr told you this,then recoursed you because you failed to compleate the BFT,would you consider this a friendly form of hazing?
Bad leadership only equals one thing-1st round in the back of the head,or dead troops.Eithher way it's a bad situation no matter how you look at it.

 

[Hansol]

Okay boys, you got me riled up  ;D

I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse. Ah hell, lets drink 8 quarts of milk anyway..." I guess thats why they say in todays army they want THINKING soldiers, not mindless zombies. Can anyone here say "sheep"? Cheers boys -Cameron

 

[gun plumber]

Unfortunatly,the military system,expecially in QL2,BRT,GMT(whatever it's called now!)frowns upon(not to say they want robots either) free thinkers.The reason we are instilled with disipline and proper drills is,so when the time is right,we will react properly and effectivly as a fighting force(thats one reason why we practice snap shooting-see the target,aim,and fire all in 5 seconds-no thought,only instinct).
When the leadership compromises this(or calls in to question   orders or competancy of such)then you have problems.
When a PTRL Cmdr says"Ambush right" you are expected to react in a certin way.If this guy screwed you around before,you could think to your self"this guys F***ed!he does'nt know his a$$hole from a hole in the ground!"That 2 secs lost in thought could cost you your own life or worse the lives of your friends.
We have leaders to lead.This is why the CF is not a big Frat house.
After being told to follow orders to the letter,and being shown the results of not following them,alot of troops tend to follow orders and take tips from those who are seen as more experienced than themselves.Trust is a big factor in leadership,and when bad advice is given that results in negitive aftermath,it's not the troops who suffer,its the leaders.

 

[Northern Touch]

During BMQ this summer I think it might have been joked to us by the staff to eat a lot before the gas hut but it was in now way a suggestion, it was obviously a joke said in sarcasm and I'm posative no one even thought about loading up on food or milk before the gas hut.

If however, instructors seriously suggested to drink milk because it neutralizes that gas then that is wrong on so many levels.  Obviously because instructors are supposed to lead and troops have to TRUST instructors.  Doing something silly like suggesting troops drink milk before the gas hut erodes the faith troops have in their instructors.

What would have happened if they did end up gettign the mask on, and then proceeded to puke in the gas mask?  There is a good posibility they coudl have panicked and not opened that emptying / purging peice (i forget the name) on the mask to allow the puke to flow out.  PLus, how woudl they be able to learn their drills if they puked in the mask and weren't able to purge the gas out before breathing in?  Training is everything, but a face full of puke with a gas mask on for your first time ever isn't an optimal way to train.

On another note, Some of you guys must have had it easy, being able to suck in and slowly start to feel it.  I was the 3rd into the room and i dind't even have time to take a breath, it hit me almost automatically.  Watery eyes, runny noes, burning face and throat.  Lemme tell you, if you don't meet the 9 seconds before you go into the hut, don't worry about it.  you'll smoke it once u actually get hit with the gas.

 

[D-n-A]

How long are you in the Gas Room and what do you have to do while in there?

Your not in it for very long.


When I did mine, we walked into the gas hut in MOPP4(full dressed in the NBC suit, boots, gloves and mask on), checked our seals, than walked back out. Went to MOPP3(gasmask off), than went back  in. When everybody was in, the instructers yelled GAS GAS GAS, than we went to MOPP4. When we were done, we were walked back out.

 

[Blindspot]

Okay boys, you got me riled up  ;D

I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse. Ah heck, lets drink 8 quarts of milk anyway..." I guess thats why they say in todays army they want THINKING soldiers, not mindless zombies. Can anyone here say "sheep"? Cheers boys -Cameron

Yeah, and I'll say this for the second time...

In most cases you have sixteen, seventeen and eighteen year olds leaving from home for an extended period of time for the first time in their lives. They get jacked up by instructors for having lint on their beret, marching out of step, worse: not handing in ammunition after a live fire excercise, etc. These routines, traditions and general orders are in place for a reason. The role of the instructor is to teach these, not breach the trust of the recruit by perpetrating infantile jokes upon them under the guise of tactical advice. You don't listen to your instructor and you pay, often in pain or humiliation or both.

I ask you, what would you rather have:

A) An instructor who treats recruits firmly, fairly; who you can look up to as a mentor or

B) An instructor who delights in making a joke out of recruits for the purpose of looking cool?

 

[chrisf]

I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse.

For reference purposes, CS gas does not make you throw up. Some people do occasionally throw up as a result of the effects of CS gas (Example, from excessive coughing), or simply from being so nervous about going into the gas, but the CS gas itself does not cause one to throw up.

 

[Northern Touch]

How long are you in the Gas Room and what do you have to do while in there?

I was in their for a while.
We went in, waited for the whole section to get in, and then did some PT to simulate how working in a NBC suit affects the body.  So we did some running on the spot and running in circles and stuff.  It was probably around a good 15 minutes.

 

[dutchie]

But when you're in the suits you aren't affected by the gas :-\ are you or are you not?

Please read the previous posts before posting your questions. I have copied and pasted the relevant info for you:

When I did mine, we walked into the gas hut in MOPP4(full dressed in the NBC suit, boots, gloves and mask on), checked our seals, than walked back out. Went to MOPP3(gasmask off), than went back   in. When everybody was in, the instructers yelled GAS GAS GAS, than we went to MOPP4. When we were done, we were walked back out.

Yes, the suit protects you, but with your mask off you breathe the gas in.

 

[Hansol]

"I ask you, what would you rather have:

A) An instructor who treats recruits firmly, fairly; who you can look up to as a mentor or

B) An instructor who delights in making a joke out of recruits for the purpose of looking cool?"


Its absolutely irrelevant. The intructors told the sheep that maybe drinking lots of milk would neutralize the gas, and again, common sense would dictate to do so would be somewhat detrimental to your wellbeing, and that you would be a tool to listen to such a bullocks statement.

And, at the same time, anyone who can "get" me to do something stupid like that has my respect. the old "foool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" doesn't hold true for me. If you are good enough to get me going the first time, you have obviously convinced me that some stupid thing is instead a good thing, and to do that takes skill and character. I'm sorry, but i'm not going to get my back up over ME doing something stupid. remember that. Nowhere did the instructor say DRINK MILK YOU WANKERS OR I WILL FAIL YOU. it was "optional" cheers boys -Cameron

 

[dutchie]

To: all recruits and cadets that have posted on this thread.

Every experienced soldier on this thread has told you that what the instructors did was wrong (with the exception of Aaron White, who later changed his mind). What does that tell you? You, of no experience and training, are telling me that we are all wrong?

You mentioned the "fool me once" analogy. By 'fooling' the recruits, they create doubt in the legitimacy of commands. That is completly unacceptable and extremely dangerous to the soldier, especially in battle. You can't have troops wondering if their Section Commander is serious or not.

The bottom line is this: Trained, experienced soldiers have told you (civilians and recruits) that what they did was complaetly wrong. You, in your infinite wisdom drawn from nothing, disagree. You will learn one day.

ps, the 'cheers boys' thing is annoying. not trying to piss on your corn flakes, just pointing it out.

 

[chrisf]

But when you're in the suits you aren't affected by the gas :-\ are you or are you not?

The bunny suits are, for lack of a better comparison, rather similar to a snow suit, only lined with charcoal. The ones used for training have been washed repeatedly, and offer only minimal protection from the gas.

 

[Northern Touch]

Sometimes the smallest things could end up killing you.  You never know... if that Staff member was in battle and he said "Run to that tree" but you see men watching you, ready to kill you, then who is going to trust the man's judgment?  That small little joke could have cost him their trust forever... even if it was a one time thing.

Seriosuly, what on earth are you talking about?
If your section cmdr, plt cmdr, plt 2/ic ANYONE in some sort of leadership says "run to that tree" in battle,whether someone is "watching you" or not, your sure as hell running to that tree becasue there is obviously a reason they want you there.  Suppressing fire, covering a road, flanking the enemy etc. etc.

 

[FormerEnlisted]

AmryBoi69.. I don't know if you realize this but you are on the 'ol C&P.. "Pte. this is the last attempt to salvage your career, now assume the push-up position..." hehehehe, buddy you are walking where angels fear to tread, if I were you I would make a heart-felt apology and then retreat to the Cadet section of this site and talk about Pumpkin Pie or w/e you guys do now and days...

 

[Hansol]

well, maybe i'm going to step on some toes saying this, but of the   "experienced" guys who have posted, in my opinion most still haven't said anything worth noting in regards to failure of leadership. Don't forget that it was one of the "Experienced" guys who said his buddy never got his back up about it, he just laughed it off, and now its a good story. No where was he bitching about the chain of command, and how he is now going to hesitate in a battle situation when ordered to do something all because he drank some milk and threw up.

I ran this by my reservists friends from the Calgary Highlanders, and they all had a good laugh, and said that anyone who thinks the WO should get kicked out for that needs to get the stick out of their *** and find a sense of humour.

As for the "cheers boys" Caesar, you can piss in my cornflakes all you want. I say it all the time, and will continue to say it, mostly because its a habit. And look, while our discussions may get heated and we may have some animosity towards eachother, just remember its all in good fun. I'm not trying to spite you guys or call you all wrong, and i don't think you guys are trying to do hassle me either. Its all just good conversation, and at the end of the night i would still buy you all beer. Always remember, that winning an arguement on the internet is like winning at the special olympics: sure you won, but you are still retarded mentally challenged. Cheers boys -Cameron

[Moderator Edit:  Terminology updated]

 

[dutchie]

We've been talking about this Gassing where they were told to drink milk before going to the Gas Chamber

I give up on you, Armyboi. You're a waste of bandwidth.

well, maybe i'm going to step on some toes saying this, but of the   "experienced" guys who have posted, in my opinion most still haven't said anything worth noting in regards to failure of leadership.

Some of us have informed you of the some of the most important aspects of the CF: trust in one's superiors. We have utilized anecdotes, official 'Principles of Leadership' and how they pertain to this case, generalizations, and so on to get the point accross. If you can't recognize the value of this, maybe your not ready for it yet. Maybe the lesson is not teachable to your experience level. That's too bad. Like I said, one day you will learn this lesson.

I ran this by my reservists friends from the Calgary Highlanders

They are entitled to there opinion. I assume these friends of yours are recruits, privates, or Jr. Corporals. This would also explain their response. Regardless, lack of understanding on anothers part (your friends) does not deminish the validity of my stance.

Always remember, that winning an arguement on the internet is like winning at the special olympics: sure you won, but you are still retarded mentally challenged.

Ha-ha. Good one. Pretty original. My aim is not to 'win an argument', but to instill in a potential recruit a sense of Command Responsibility. Shame on me.

 

[Hansol]

Caesar.

Fair enough. I understand perfectly now where you are coming from. I think where our opinion differs is in the fact that for some, the whole milk fiasco would instill distrust, whereas for myself, i think i would still have respect and trust for the leader. maybe even moreso.

yes you are correct in saying they are privates and cpls. i know they aren't representative of "leaders" yet, but i do feel they adequately show what the average soldier would think of having that prank pulled. That is why i used their opinion.

Yeah, i know the old "special olympics" line has been used a lot, but i always get a laugh out of it every now and then. figured it would lighten things up. And i thank you for your trying to instill leadership qualities into my opinions. I spose i should have stated before that while i do not believe this milk stunt to be evil or detrimental, I myself wouldn't pull it. I feel there is a time and place for jerking around, and i don't think the gas hut is the greatest of locals. -Cameron

 

[dutchie]

Fair enough. I still disagree with a whole lot of what you just posted, but I guess you need to evolve in your understanding of this, and I can't expect you to know it all yet.

Your lack of concern for these leader's actions just drives home to me the importance  of the trust that has been instilled in the Section Commader - you don't even realize you are being misled and your trust betrayed, so it is doubly-important not to violate that trust.

 

[FormerEnlisted]

Caesar.
... I think where our opinion differs is in the fact that for some, the whole milk fiasco would instill distrust, whereas for myself, i think i would still have respect and trust for the leader. maybe even moreso...
yes you are correct in saying they are privates and cpls. i know they aren't representative of "leaders" yet, but i do feel they adequately show what the average soldier would think of having that prank pulled. That is why i used their opinion.

Sorry, I do not quite understand how having your instructors say one thing and then watch them laugh when another happens will instill trust? and how on earth would you respect them more afterwards? this is like having some kid fry your safety rope with a magnifying glass and then let him belay you. And all your friends who think this is funny are probably only saying that so that you will be stupid enough to screw up on course and get jacked up by a Cpl. who doesn't find sh.it like that funny. on top of that, they are already soldiers so they are willing to laugh at the idea of some recruit messing up. if they were in that situation they wouldn't do the same thing themselves...

 

[Hansol]

heheh yeah a lot of people have trouble seeing it the way i do. Its just that in my eyes the warrant never said one thing and did another. He threw the idea out there that "milk would neutralize" the gas, and that was it. It was up to the soldier to decide whether to follow through on the questionable remark, not the warrant in this case. He never ordered anyone to do anything. the soldier had to decide whether he would blindly drink the milk, or whether he should stop and think and use some common sense. Again, he was never ordered to drink the milk, so this is why i don't see any problem.

In regards to my having more respect for the warrant, if you had read my previous posts, I said how the old "fool me once...." thing doesn't hold true for me. If you are crafty enough to fool me ANYTIME you have my respect. It means that you have convinced me that something "not-so-good" is actually instead "good" and to do that takes intelligence, wit, and a sense of humour. All qualities that i admire. Now this a perverse use of those skills, but nontheless it worked, and in my case i would have more respect for the warrant. Of course i would be more cautious around the man in the future.... Cheers boys -Cameron