General Hillier's Legacy (split from:Top general fights to cut the fat in the Forces)

[ArmyRick]

One of the important qualities of military leadership is to inspire your troops. Someone like Rick Hillier was excellent at that where as Jean Boyle, well, lets leave it at that...

 

[armyvern]

Customer Service Section Afghanistan responding to a client.

I think that client wants a refund!!  >

 

[Kat Stevens]

He'll have to return all the pieces to customer service, or if not possible, a fully completed and signed off loss damage report, in triplicate.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Another problem is that we adopted many of the practices from the business world. How many times did you hear about "PY's," "serving the customer" or "pushing a product?"

My own 2 cent's worth is I agree with the above post,I forget when it started the Officer's over the years came back talking like C.E.O.'s and treating the Military like it was a Blue Chip Corporation.
I and others noted the change in their demeanour,speech and the micro management.

The Military is not a Blue Chip Corporation,we are here to serve our Nation no more and no less.
And while we are on the Topic of the Ex CDS where is he in this shamefull abuse of Vet's by the present Government?
I thought he was all for one and one for all.

 

[dapaterson]

I remember in Rick Hillier's book "Soldier First" he talks about not being too impressed with the bearocracy at DND. He was apprently offered by the MND at the time an oppurtunity to separate the CF from DND and make it answer only to elected officials such as the PM and the MND.

He also mentioned that he did not like the bloat, empire building and heel dragging on important issues these beaurocrats did.

Maybe they are the first to be done away with?

Gen Rick (ret'd) grew the three dot COMs out of the DCDS - essentially, he grew the HQ burden, which in turn grows bureaucracy.

He's had a free ride for far too long - between increasing HQ bloat, overmanning some trades to the detriment of others and ordering benefits without legal authority his tenure, in retrospect, created far more problems than it solved.  Unfortunately, I don;t think we'll see any objective assessment i nthe near term - too many up-and-comers have latched on to him as a role model, and too many journalists like him as a source for pithy quotes to ever do any hard assessment of his failings.

 

[ArmyRick]

What trades has he (Gen Hillier) got overmanned? I know infantry is heavily overbourne but at same time, I don't think they expected as many people to stay in either.

 

[McG]

What trades has he (Gen Hillier) got overmanned? I know infantry is heavily overbourne but at same time, I don't think they expected as many people to stay in either.

When one occupation is overborne by 4 didgits, that single occupation will force several other occupations to stay in the red.

 

[PuckChaser]

But is that Hillier's fault? I didn't see him making any speeches to just join the infantry, he just wanted people to join the CF in any capacity. 4 digits overborne is the fault of the Recruiting system or whoever does the forecasting for retention numbers (DGMC?).

 

[dapaterson]

But is that Hillier's fault? I didn't see him making any speeches to just join the infantry, he just wanted people to join the CF in any capacity. 4 digits overborne is the fault of the Recruiting system or whoever does the forecasting for retention numbers (DGMC?).

Recruiting: "We've reached the infantry quota for the year."

HR Systems managers: "Then stop recruting infantry and concentrate on the other trades where there are shortfalls"

Army: "Then stop recruting infantry and concentrate on the other trades where there are shortfalls"

General Rick: "Well, b'y, bring more in!"


(Note: This is not 100% verbatim, but it's close enough)


The Infantryman trade (NCMs; officer occupation is Infantry) is sufficiently overborne that there will be some bad times ahead, with no new blood coming in.


Rick Hillier made gut decisions without information that have long-term operational impacts on the CF that he never considered.  In terms of inspiring the troops, he was a great CDS.  In terms of setting the conditions for long term stability and success, not so much.

 

[ArmyRick]

What makes you so certain that General Hillier simply made "gut decisions"? I don't for one second beleive he just flung around a plan willy nilly. From what I read in his autobiography, he put alot of thought and planning into his CF transformation.

His ideas were based on the short falls he witnessed and expirienced in several capacities (CO RCD, Commander 2 CMBG, Commander Multinational Brigade NW I beleive in Bosnia and as commander of ISAF).

He knew full well that civilian beaurocrats were making decisions from Ottawa about how we were conducting operations in Bosnia and Afghanistan, taking away a good portion of command and control from those in theaters of ops. He was able to remove that civilian control of Military on ops. Now decisions reside with commanders in theater. They answer to a military chain of command, who in turn answers to the MND and the PM (elected officials).

Have you taken the time to hear Rick Hillier's side of the story? Read his book, don't make assumptions.

 

[aesop081]

Have you taken the time to hear Rick Hillier's side of the story? Read his book, don't make assumptions.

I have read his books and heard his side of things, from him personaly. The assesment made by dapaterson is accurate.

 

[PuckChaser]

The assesment made by dapaterson is accurate.

In your opinion. I have yet to see dapaterson with any evidence that Hillier was behind it. Until I see some proof, its just hot air.

 

[aesop081]

Until I see some proof, its just hot air.

Proof of what ?

That he had great intentions but saddled us with multiple new commands that sapped personel and effort away from an already stressed system ?

That under his watch recruiting was allowed to go out of control ?

If Hillier's intent really was to remove civillian beurocrats from ops decisions, what price did we pay for that.

We got the .COMs, that what we paid.

 

[PuckChaser]

That under his watch recruiting was allowed to go out of control ?

I'm looking for proof Hillier was directly responsible for overborne combat arms trades.

 

[dapaterson]

I'm looking for proof Hillier was directly responsible for overborne combat arms trades.

Was there direction given by the CDS to continue recruiting infantrymen despite the SIP target for infantrymen being achieved?  Yes.


I believe it's reflected in RODs for AFC in that timeframe.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm looking for proof Hillier was directly responsible for overborne combat arms trades.

It was called by various names but there was, always, a committee, chaired by the CDS, that made decisions about a variety of issues - recruiting quotas being one of the important ones. We You The CF gets its high level quotas - x people, y of whom are flag and general officers, for z dollars - from parliament (the Blue Book) but the details, this many infanteers, that many sailors, and so many loggies was made by that top level military committee. It's a pretty fundamental force structure decision based on the CDS' views and priorities, one that, properly, belongs at the top; if the CDS didn't/doesn't preside over that decision he should.

I don't see people saying Rick Hillier was a bad CDS - just that some of his decisions may have consequences he appears not to have foreseen.

 

[PuckChaser]

I believe it's reflected in RODs for AFC in that timeframe.

Are these DWAN only? Internet only gives the description of the AFC.

 

[Michael OLeary]

In your opinion. I have yet to see dapaterson with any evidence that Hillier was behind it. Until I see some proof, its just hot air.

I would suggest that if Hellyer is still vilified today for every single detail of Unification because it happened on his watch, then Hillier will similarly have to be held accountable for actions taken during his tenure.  Unless you can demonstrate that he had no knowledge of it and no control over the issues of manning that "robbed" positions from other trades to over-man select ones.

 

[GAP]

I think Hillier's legacy can be viewed from two prespectives.....

the CF member's POV..

the civilian's POV....

I think they radically differ, but the one thing nobody can take away from him is the level of awareness of the CF he created across Canada...

 

[Jed]

I don't think the CF point of view is of one common perspective compared to the civilian point of view wrt Gen Hillier Ret'd

The respect given to the CF in the eyes of civilians and the common soldier is still far past anything it has been in the last 20 yrs thanks to the General. We can live with the not so good decisions that occurred on his watch. It is far better than when we were surviving the 'decade of darkness'.