Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

[jj11ssmm]

The Georgian troops breaking all international agreements started aggression against Osetian population and Russian peaceful forces

On the 8th of august Georgia treacherously, breaking all international agreements, started massive bombardment of the South-Osetian capital Zhinvali, the dispositions of Russian peacemakers and Osetian villages, using air bombers, hard artillery, mine troopers, «Grad» weapons. Two days earlier the Georgian peacemakers without any explanations left their positions and Georgia evacuated ethnically Georgians, living on the territory of South Osetia.

South Osetia is an autonomous republic which demands independence, staying formally after disintegration of the Soviet Union in the territorial borders of Georgia. The people of S. Osetia on the referendum declared their will to become an independent state. In 1994 Georgia started its first war against the Osetian people proclaiming the idea of territorial wholeness. Then Georgian troops destroyed hundreds of villages and thousands of people were killed and injured. The peaceful agreement after the war supposed the presence of peacemakers from Russia and Georgia in South Osetia to prevent collisions between the Georgian and Osetian partisans.

It must be specially underlined that Osetia now is divided into two parts: South and North. The last is the part of Russia. Osetia has a two hundred years friendly relations with Russia: exactly 200 hundred years ago Osetia asked Russia about the entry into the Russian empire and from that time till now Russians and Osetians live in peace and friendship. Most of the Osetian people have Russian citizenship.

Returning to august the 8th. The Georgian troops breaking all international agreements started aggression against Osetian population and Russian peaceful forces.

On the night of the 8th of august the capital of Osetia was turned into ruins for seven hours of Georgian massive air and hard artillery bombardment.

Paying no attention that the houses are inhabited by women, children and old people the Georgian artillery crushed everything in the city, including the House of Parliament, schools, university, hospital and positions of Russian peaceful forces.

Thousands of people were killed by bombs and crushing houses. Those, who stayed alive, and those, who were wounded, were obliged to hide in the basements of the ruined houses. They spent there several days (some of them stay there up till now), experiencing lack of water, air, medicines. Wounded and bleeding people are dying in anti-sanitary conditions. The Georgian troops which occupied Zchinval, shoot everyone who tries to come out of their shelters in search of water. People in the shelters saw how the Georgian tanks executed women with children in their hands, shooting their heads, and squashing them by tanks caterpillars. Georgian snipers were working hard not to allow peaceful citizens to leave the city. Witnesses saw how the women, who was trying to find water for her child, was shot by Georgian sniper, her head turning into pieces. In these hours came the facts that amongst the Georgian warriors were present the hirelings from other countries, from NATO ,who even didn’t speak Georgian or Russian.

Those peaceful citizens, who managed to leave the city and tried to make their way, using their cars and on foot, to the nearby Osetian village Jhava, were attacked by Georgian tanks and mine-throwers, some of them were attacked from the air and annihilated. At the same time Russian peacemakers, which had lost 15 people dead and more than 150 wounded continued resistance on there positions, being surrounded by Georgian troops whose number in twelve times overcame the number of Russian peaceful contingent.

In this conditions, which Russian Federation qualified as “genocide of the Osetian people”, as murdering of peaceful population, as the Georgian strategy of “burnt ground” and “ethnic cleansings”, as “the barbaric war of the president with the people of his country” made a decision to restore peace and stability in South Osetia using all international agreements and the right to protect Russian citizens. The Russian authorities decided to strengthen the peaceful contingent in the epicenter of war, in order to stop violence, murdering of innocent people, to help the wounded Russian citizens to leave the Zchinval city and reach hospitals in the safe regions.

The president Saakashvili applied the American tactics of “burning ground”, which was practiced in Vietnam by American aggressors in the late 60-s. The operation of extermination of Osetian population was planned long before the 8th of august under the direction of American military specialists and was of extremely antihuman character.

Analyzing the facts from the epicenter of war, Russian investigators constituted: Georgian troops practiced face to face shooting of civil people, burned them with fire, shouted into the backs of running away women and children, used tank caterpillars to crush people in order to destroy the signs of antihuman violence on the occupied territories. There are hundreds of witnesses of the terrific cruelness of Georgian soldiers towards the Osetin population. Most of the soldiers of the aggressor used narcotics. They carried maps of “one-day war” according to which they were obliged to finish the war in one day, occupying south Osetian territories and exterminating population as quickly as it is possible.

It should be stressed, that during the previous years of Saakashvili precedence all the economical recourses of the Georgian nation were thrown to the organization of war with Osetia and Abchasia. Young people for years practiced military trainings with NATO instructors. The army increased its might in thirty times. At the same time the main Georgian population reached the lowest levels of poverty and degradation.

For the forth day Georgian side continue large-caliber shooting in the parts of the city. Up till now wounded people cant get water, medicine and medical help. Russian troops continue displacement of the Georgian troops from the regions of the city.

http://evrazia.org/article.php?id=580



[Edited to include Quotes, where original poster "forgot".]

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

In a move typical of members of a democratic and free society, I see I am no longer allowed to edit my posts.

This is a PRIVATE website with rules and you broke them.............stop whining.

If I was to go to a website forum like, say this one and not want to follow the rules as agreed to,  what would happen?

 

[George Wallace]

jj11ssmm

We frown on posting verbatim published articles without the necessary credits.  You have made a post that insinuates that it is your own words, when none of them are, everything being from a news article.  If you want to contribute, please post your own comments and properly credit the works of other authors.

Perhaps you should have a look at our Rules of Conduct, and our Policy on posting of entire articles- EVERYONE PLEASE READ!!!

Another point, as you just registered and posted this canned post immediately, we already have a topic discussing the events in Georgia.


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[TacticalW]

I see.... so what kind of proof are you looking for? As for it being aired, you really need to take a look at Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Ethnic cleansing occured because ... not pay attention you might miss it again...  GEORGIAN forces BOMBED CIVILIANS OF A PARTICULAR DISTINCT RACE, THAT BEING OSSETIAN. They bombed a city which they knew is populated by Ossetians, resulting in over 1500 deaths, 2000 according to Russian sources (not disputed by the west by the way), and this qualifies as ethnic cleasing. Clear enough?

I have seen numbers go anywhere from 40 to 2000, I'd say no one knows the "actual" casualty number, including Russia. As for ethnic cleansing, I doubt they were targeting the citizens specifically and many of the "stories" of atrocities can easily be argued against. Make sure to watch the words you say there, you're devolving into insults again.

The proof would be pictures/video of the atrocities actually happening, thorough investigations from a third party and things of that nature. For those major claims, you have nothing. Shellings are common in battle and they didn't really have that much else available to use for that purpose. They more then likely wouldn't have to if the Russians didn't support and fund the rebels and if things didn't get set up like this.

The bottomline is that Russia has a "lot" to gain from this and all of the evidence points to them trying to jump-start this "event". If that news article on the cyber warfare is true, well that's just more ammo to the already credible list of facts behind them wanting a heavy handed reaction and forcing it.

 

[vonGarvin]

The media is all over the place.  Remember, for everyone, the first casualty in war is truth.  Such as the charade that Mikheil Saakashvili put on when his bodyguards covered him with flak jackets, everyone looking "with fear" to above.  Of course, the Russians weren't bombing just then.  Winston Churchill would have been ashamed!
Then, on the other side, Pravda says that "USA shows its meanness again as Russia mourns victims of genocide".  Whom to believe?  I'm not sure.  I do remember the French reporter taking several staged shots in 2006 in Lebanon.  Same girl was portrayed as several girls killed by Israelis.
Remember, just as the Western Press only reports bad news out of Afghanistan, does everyone here honestly think that only one side is telling the truth in Georgia right now?
So, to all, I would offer "Be objective" and "think critically" when you read or hear about Georgia.  To illustrate, the following are pretty well verified by all media
On or about 8 August, Georgia shelled into South Ossetia.  Why?  That's debatable.
On or about 9 August, Russia attacked into South Ossetia.  Why?  That too is debatable.
Anything beyond that, at this point, is speculation, I would offer.

 

[JackD]

In regard to genocidal activities within the enclave - I found this arcticle posted on the CBC website: the account of outside observers:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080813/w081305A.html

Heavy damage in Tskhinvali, mostly at government centre
Published: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 | 12:53 AM ET
Canadian Press: Douglas Birch, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Gutted and shrapnel-scarred buildings testify to fierce street battles and heavy rocket and bomb attacks in the separatist capital of South Ossetia. But there is little evidence civilians were specifically targeted by Georgian troops, as Russia claims.
During a visit Tuesday arranged by the Russian government, journalists from The Associated Press and other Western media were escorted into the city aboard armoured vehicles.
Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighbourhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.
The heaviest damage from the recent fighting appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center. More than a dozen buildings in the area were little more than scorched shells.
Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows, perhaps from bomb concussions.
Near the city center, on Moscow Street, pieces of tanks lay in a heap near a bomb crater. The turret of one tank was blown into the front of the printing school across the street. A severed foot lay on the sidewalk nearby.
Continue Article
Salima Grapova, a 41-year-old music teacher pointed to the blast damage at the intersection, which is one of the hardest hit spots. A theatre, typesetting school and an apartment house were heavily damaged or destroyed.
"Here every rock had blood on it," she said of the fierce fighting. Asked why her neighbourhood had suffered, she noted that the train station and other government targets were nearby.
Outside town, dozens of houses burned along the main road. A Russian officer said some of the buildings had been burning for days and others were damaged the previous night during an airstrike by a single Georgian plane.
When an AP photographer rode through the same villages Monday morning, none of the houses was burning. The fires only began Monday night, more than 24 hours after the battle for the city was over.
Georgia's security council said Tuesday it filed suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging Russian troops who intervened in the conflict are trying to drive ethnic Georgians out of South Ossetia and another breakaway area, Abkhazia.
That claim came after Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and other Kremlin officials accused Georgia of committing genocide after launching its offensive last week, including missile attacks, to try to retake control of this region populated by ethnic Ossetians.
Russian officials in Tskhnivali echoed that theme during the visit by reporters Tuesday.
Army Col. Igor Kononenko showed off a civilian neighbourhood, once part of the old Jewish quarter, that sustained extensive damage. He said that was proof the Georgians targeted civilians.
"This street is very small, tanks can't go through here," he said, arguing there was no military reason for the Georgian military to shell the neighborhood.
However, the district stands on a hillside in the line of fire between Georgian rocket position and Tskhinvali's government center, located around the university. Some civilians in the area conceded Georgian fire at the government building might have fallen short.
At the regional hospital, doctors said the patients were moved to the basement during Georgia's bombardment of the city, and had to do without light, water or toilets. The dungeon-like rooms still stank of sewage Tuesday, while sheets and bandages were stained with blood.
Dr. Tina Zhakarova, who said the hospital had treated 224 patients during the fighting, called the Georgian assault on the city an act of ethnic cleansing.
Noting the medical facility had been damaged, she held out a handful of shrapnel to reporters. Doctors can protect people from disease, she said. "How can we protect them against this?"
But from the outside, the hospital appeared to have only light damage, either from bullets or shrapnel. Most of the windows were shattered.
Russian army officers said a Georgian missile pierced the hospital's roof and caused damage not visible on the outside. But they refused to show reporters the destruction, saying it was not safe.
Georgian authorities also have charged misdeeds by Russian troops and their allies.
An AP photographer saw irregular troops near burning homes in ethnic Georgian villages, and there was evidence of looting in those areas.
At an Ezeit electronics store with smashed windows, a few appliances stood outside, but most of the stock seemed to be gone.
Nearby, a man in dark glasses, camouflage and a Kalashnikov assault rifle drove a tractor hauling what looked like a large refrigerator partly visible under a blanket. A car went down the road with two new satellite dishes on top.
Much of South Ossetia has become an armed camp after fighting that Russian officials said had killed 2,000 Ossetians.
Two rocket launchers stood in an alpine meadow near grazing cows Tuesday. Resorts, picnic areas and a school had become impromptu military bases. A long line of Russian army trucks headed south day and night on mountain roads toward Tskhinvali.
In the capital, meanwhile, the few residents left didn't appear to have much to do except mourn their dead. Many complained bitterly about alleged Georgian "fascism."
Sporadic fighting. There was artillery fire, apparently aimed at suspected Georgian positions, and anti-aircraft missile was fired. No aircraft was visible from the ground, and nothing appeared to be hit.
Asked whether Russian forces planned to push deeper into Georgia, Kononenko, the army colonel, said he had orders not to move his troops. "We are staying here," he said.
-
Associated Press Writer Musa Sadulayev contributed to this report.
© The Canadian Press, 2008

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080813/w081305A.html

 

[geo]

.... so, Russian troops have liberated the proletariat of South Ossetia from Georgian opression.
And now the Russian troops have declared that they are staying.
Soo.... is this going to be protective custody - like they provided to East Germany, Czecoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and all those other eastern block countries they protected between 1945 and 1990 ???

 

[vonGarvin]

.... so, Russian troops have liberated the proletariat of South Ossetia from Georgian opression.
And now the Russian troops have declared that they are staying.
Soo.... is this going to be protective custody - like they provided to East Germany, Czecoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and all those other eastern block countries they protected between 1945 and 1990 ???

I hardly think so.  South Ossetians, for the most part, carry Russian Passports.  East Germans, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Poles etc didn't.

 

[vonGarvin]

Reports: Russians moving deeper into Georgia

 
TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- A convoy of Russian armored personnel carriers was heading deeper into Georgia Wednesday, CNN Correspondent Matthew Chance reported.
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says Russia has continued to attack the city of Gori. Chance, on the road with the Russian column, said it was moving slowly south from Gori. Early fears that it was headed for the capital, Tbilisi, were allayed when the convoy turned down a side road.   Chance said CNN had been told by Georgian officials that the convoy was heading for an abandoned Georgian military base.

So, that's what the story said in the main body.  In the "tag line" on the main page, it said this:

Russian tanks were heading deeper into Georgia today on a road that leads to the capital, Tbilisi, witnesses at Gori said. CNN's Matthew Chance, on the road with the Russian column, reports armored personnel carriers filled with hundreds of men were moving slowly in the direction of the capital

This is what I mean.  In the tag line on the main page, one would assume that the Russians were heading to Tbilisi.  If you read it critically, you see that they were heading "in that direction."  In the article, posted 7 minutes before I got to the page, it shows that they were heading to that abandoned military base.

Another interesting point.  CNN tracks the "top ten" viewed articles. 
They were:
Loyal dog guards owner after death
Tips to think faster on your feets
'Pregnancy pact' principle resigns
Sheriff groped me, deputy says
'Virgin' actor charged in stabbing
Bear mauls man, son
Mom held in boy's alleged cult death
'Russia rampaging through town'
Stroke blamed in Hayes' death
Dungeon man faces slavery charge

So, tell me, is the news media an information service, or entertainment, or both?  This, I think, illustrates why anything reported anywhere ought to be viewed critically.

 

[geo]

I hardly think so.  South Ossetians, for the most part, carry Russian Passports.  East Germans, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Poles etc didn't.

Russian passports?
Is this a holdover from the Soviet days where they obtained automatic citzenship when the USSR rolled up on itself or are these more recent immigrants to the region?
(Lord knows, when the UK started handing back their collonies to the local populations, lots and lots of colonials obtained their UK passports - though I believe that loophole was closed by the time Hong Kong was returned to China.)

 

[stegner]

Russian passports?
Is this a holdover from the Soviet days where they obtained automatic citzenship when the USSR rolled up on itself or are these more recent immigrants to the region?
(Lord knows, when the UK started handing back their collonies to the local populations, lots and lots of colonials obtained their UK passports - though I believe that loophole was closed by the time Hong Kong was returned to China.)

Ossetians are essentially a Christian Persian or Iranian ethnic group.  They are kind of like the Kurds in that they do not have an independent homeland.  This conflict presently, is merely a continuation of the first major Georgian-Ossetian conflict that took place from 1918-1920.  Many Ossetians felt they were better treated under the Soviets than under the Georgians historically and have retained their Russian passports to indicate their desire to be 'Russians'  rather than 'Georgians,' as the believe that Russia will defend their interests.  The Ossetians are allies with the Russians in fights with the Ingush and Chechens.  The conflict in 1991-92 saw the Russians and Ossetians facing off against Chechens and the Ingush militias. 

 

[Kirkhill]

But it has vowed to defend its citizens in South Ossetia - of which there are many. More than half of South Ossetia's 70,000 citizens are said to have taken up Moscow's offer of a Russian passport.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm

The rest of the link gives the BBC's version of a canned history.

I am afraid that I am of the opinion that SOME sort of military intervention by the EU or NATO or the US is required.  Not on the front lines perhaps but certainly a Battalion/Brigade sized demonstration force deployed to uncontestably Georgian ground - like Tblisi itself.

This is analogous to the end of WWII.  The Russians moved into a vacuum created by a West that was very happy with itself for defeating Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini and just wanted to pack up and study war no more.  That resulted in Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians and even Germans ,living under unfriendly foreign occupation for almost 50 years.

If the US doesn't act firmly (I would love the EU/NATO to act firmly but the Stars of NATO and the EU should perhaps be replaced by the Mythical Spaghetti Bush of Richard Dimbleby fame), then all of those Nations will have to look to their own devices making for an even more unpredictable and unstable situation.

Ukrainia, (literally "The Borderland") is a special case as it alway has been.  The Principality of Kiev has always been a nexus of trade between East and West, as well as North and South.  The same is true of Tbilisi.

The US needs to visibly support its Eastern Allies.  I would like NATO to do the same thing aber sie haben keine sputzen.  And Vladimir knows it.

A forward deployment of USAF tactical assets into Poland and Hungary might send the appropriate message as well.

 

[Kirkhill]

....But NATO ambassadors meeting in Brussels blasted Moscow for "an excessive, disproportionate use of force," and renewed their support for Georgia to ultimately join the military alliance.

....In a show of defiance to the Russian attacks, 100,000 people packed the main Rustaveli avenue of Tbilisi, where a sea of red-and-white Georgian flags waved above the crowds.

President Mikheil Saakashvili told a rally that Georgia would quit the Russian-led Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), a grouping of former Soviet states, and urged Ukraine to follow suit.

Georgia has received strong support from other former communist states with the leaders of Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states travelling to Tbilisi where they addressed a mass rally.

"You have the right to freedom and independence. We are here to demonstrate our solidarity ... freedom is worth fighting for," shouted Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko in live pictures carried by Georgian television.....

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gMdd8JLLbK-2-v3dR8eJql7VdalA

I am not surprised by the actions of the leaders of Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic States.  I have to admit that the words of the NATO ambassadors surprise me.  Maybe the prospect of long, cold winters is stiffening their resolve.

Another interesting factor in this is the relatively positive play that the Georgian position is receiving in Agence France Presse.  Does Sarkozy get a chance to play for Man of the Hour as both President of France and President of the EU?  The Anti-DeGaulle DeGaulle?

 

[stegner]

I am afraid that I am of the opinion that SOME sort of military intervention by the EU or NATO or the US is required.

I disagree.  The Caucus region is within Russia's sphere of influence and they are entitled to their own Monroe Doctrine in that region, just as the U.S is entitled to exercises its discretion in the western hemisphere, whether it is Panama, El Salvador or Grenada (remember in 1983 when the U.S invaded the territory of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II).  How would the U.S react if the Russians started to  play a major role in the Western Hemisphere such as sending Special Forces units to train soldiers of countries that are not friendly to the U.S?  The U.S has been doing this in the Caucus for several years now.  Or what about permanently stationing troops (i.e. a Spetnaz Company) in Central or South America as the U.S has done in the Caucus.  The U.S would crap its pants.  It can dish it out but can't take it in.  The U.S is still refusing to have normal relations with Cuba as it had cooperated too greatly with the Soviets. What you suggest will only escalate the situation and besides the west has no business in Georgia or the Caucus or the immense oil deposits therein.  If the U.S signed off on the Georgian adventure in South Ossetia in the hopes that it would facilitate pipeline construction than it must share the blame in the reaction of the Russians.  Many have described the Russians as a bully.  Sure they are.  Most great powers are.  Let's not forget that our ally, the U.S, the hyper-power, is a bully too and is hypocritical at times. Russia is aggressively defending the South Ossetians, but let's be clear they are also in dialogue with its neighbours and the U.S and NATO: Don't poke the Bear! 

Btw The deal of the Second World War among the allies was that if you conquer the territory you get to administer it after the war was over.  Why should millions of Russians die to serve Western interests is what many Soviet policy makers thought at the time and so they tried to convert their territories to communism.  If the west had a problem of the territorial arrangements they should have fought Germany more effectively.

 

[Kirkhill]

Stegner, I regret that I believe you to be a bit behind the times.  The Communists were indeed supporting local sympathizers in the US's Backyard for many years, directly in aid to Cuba, indirectly in using Russian trained Cubans to assist locals (and Africans in the case of Angola) and covertly in supplying training facilities in places like Libya to various Liberation Fronts.

With respect to hypocrisy....personally I don't have much difficulty recognizing substantive differences between the US and Putin's kleptocracy (well done Thucydides) that allow me to rationalize the US as a very different and, I daresay, better global citizen, than Russia.

 

[vonGarvin]

With respect to hypocrisy....personally I don't have much difficulty recognizing substantive differences between the US and Putin's kleptocracy (well done Thucydides) that allow me to rationalize the US as a very different and, I daresay, better global citizen, than Russia.

Many people debate that point; however, I don't think that the US=White Knight and Russia=Black Knight.
Did Georgia go after South Ossetia?  Yes.  BM-21 Grads and all.  Was it provoked?  I'm pretty sure.  Did Russia go in with "overwhelming" force against Georgia?  Most certainly, Su-25s and all. 
In my opinion (and my opinion only), Georgia's recent actions appear to be of a little pissant nation trying to get its own way through force, thinking (perhaps wrongly) that NATO (read: The USA) would come and help them once the Bear hit back on them.  The Georgian's aren't idiots: they KNEW that if they went into an enclave of persons whom Russia considers Russian citizens, Russia would hit back, and hard.  I don't think that they foresaw the speed with which the Russians reacted.  Having said that, I'm fairly certain that Russia had a number of contingency plans, and I'm also fairly certain that the Russians saw evidence of an impending Georgian foray into South Ossetia, thereby prepping "Plan 9 from Caucasus".  Unlike our massive, lumbering divisions, the Russians can launch theirs fairly quickly.  I mean, they didn't do a strategic recce, set up a Theatre Activation Team, do up an HLTA plan, organise airlift, give cultural briefs, etc and so forth.  Remember, we use precision munitions because we, in the west, prefer to avoid killing when we go to war.  The Russians have no such qualms, which is why they use things like the 9P140 URAGAN (Hurricane) and the 9K58 SMERCH ("Tornado").  We know it, the Russians know it and the Georgians certainly know it.  And if they didn't, they certainly do now.

 

[stegner]

Stegner, I regret that I believe you to be a bit behind the times.  The Communists were indeed supporting local sympathizers in the US's Backyard for many years, directly in aid to Cuba, indirectly in using Russian trained Cubans to assist locals (and Africans in the case of Angola) and covertly in supplying training facilities in places like Libya to various Liberation Fronts.

No I realize the Soviets were active in South and Central America-though mostly indirectly as part of the series of Cold War proxy wars.  There was no need to train the Contras when you could get the Cubans to do it for you.  I am talking about right now.  The U.S thinks that the Monroe Doctrine applies globally.  My contention is that they think the entire world is their backyard and they get upset whenever anyone else invades a country.  The U.S does not have a monopoly on invading smaller countries and regime change.  They have to realize the limitations of their Empire.  If they don't imperial overstretch is not far behind.  I subscribe to neither the belief that Russians or Americans impetuses are required for a better global citizen.  Btw Is not Vice-President Cheney a kleptocrat?  What about the Congress or the Senate?  I have not thought of those bodies as legislative bodies, but rather bodies for pork-barreling. 

 

[vonGarvin]

Interesting article here

Samples:
The military operation in Georgia will serve ``as a warning'' to Ukraine that it should desist from petitioning for NATO entry, said Janusz Bugajski, director of the New European Democracies Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. ``Otherwise, Moscow may intervene to protect the allegedly threatened interests of the Russian population.''
--------------
``If (Russia) reacts too violently against Ukraine, then it risks provoking the reaction it least wants: trade and investment barriers for its companies, a more antagonistic approach to energy transit, and above all, it risks scaring Ukraine into seeking western protection,'' he said.
--------------
Germany and France opposed NATO entry for Georgia, a country of 4.6 million people that is almost as big as the U.S. state of South Carolina, and Ukraine because of the Georgian separatist disputes and opposition to membership among some Ukrainians. They now will feel their concerns have been justified, said Cliff Kupchan of New-York based Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm.

 

[oligarch]

To the individual who has neard numbers from 40 to 2000, you are mixing up numbers from Gori and from Tshinivali. The innocent civilians killed by the Russian side in Gori when bombing military instalations (grad systems, particularily) near and in Gori range from 20-60 from different sources. The numbers in Tshinivali actually range from 1400 from the most conservative to 2000.

Calling the president a "thug" is just unacceptable and insulting. It's probably best not to respond to provocation.

With regard to Georgia allegedly getting for a ceasefire through the media, there was no official note directed to the Russian ministry for foreign affairs or defence ministry, and firing from the Georgian side continued. The allegations that there was a ceasefire as Russians continued to advance are complete falsehood and lies.

With regard to me breaking the rules. I disagree that I broke any rules. Please cite WHICH rule I broke and what I said to brake it. Otherwise, I kindly request that my "warning" be removed. I just want to know what I did wrong... you know... just so I don't accidentally do it again.

With regard to the Georgian side which was "begging for a ceasefire", it is apparent that it is continuing millitary operations even in light of an actual ceasefire (see below). Can it really be trusted?

With regard to Georgia being a "beacon of democracy", see this: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17670
and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli_Okruashvili
and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t95x5-0dKlo&feature=related
and this even this (warning BBC news):  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7084357.stm

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Russian troops down Georgian drone over S. Ossetia
19:46 | 13/ 08/ 2008
 
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080813/116017256.html

MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Russian peacekeepers shot down a Georgian unmanned reconnaissance plane over the capital of breakaway South Ossetia on Wednesday, a Defense Ministry official said.

"Despite Georgia's assurances that it would end military action, a Georgian unmanned drone was detected over Tskhinvali on Wednesday. ... Russian peacekeepers shot it down," the official said.

The spokesman said the drone was downed around 17:30 [13:30 GMT] and was the second reconnaissance aircraft to be shot down over the region since last night.

At least eight flights by reconnaissance drones over the separatist republic were reported by Russian peacekeepers last Thursday, a day before Georgia launched its devastating military offensive on South Ossetia August 8.

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With regard to the individual who wants more proof; unfortunately, I can't show you 2000 pictures of the dead. There are images of the shelling of the city, which is exactly what is alleged. Russia is claiming the shelling of racially unique areas to be GENOCIDE.

 

[JackD]

"calling the president a thug is just unacceptable and insulting. It's probably best not to respond to provocation' - so what do you suggest - pistols at dawn?

Nice term 'peacekeepers' Do they wear blue helmets? Are they paid by the United Nations? Are they minimally armed? Are they neutral? I happened to know a bit about peacekeeping as I had been in Cyprus and Egypt.. To use the term ''peacekeeper" is a travesty in this context and reflects badly upon the United Nations.