Get your Creation debate here!

[48Highlander]

â Å“Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.â ?

I don't understand how this comment can be taken as unbelievable or unacceptable when the present American administration is pushing an agenda from the religious right that advocates strictly Christian values.   An article in today's issue of the Toronto Star noted the present policy of the Bush government in attempting to remove evolution from science text books and nation wide abstinence policies as a replacement for other birth control methods.   Is this not attempting to place Christian values and the bible as "the highest authority in America" ?

They're not "Christian values".  Most religions dissaprove of pre-marital sex, and I can't think of any that accept evolution as a fact.  The only reason you see them as Christian values is because the US admin is mainly Christian, however, I'm sure that the Muslim groups would be just as happy to see evolution yanked from the curriculum, and have abstinance forced on youth.

 

[atticus]

I don't understand how this comment can be taken as unbelievable or unacceptable when the present American administration is pushing an agenda from the religious right that advocates strictly Christian values.   An article in today's issue of the Toronto Star noted the present policy of the Bush government in attempting to remove evolution from science text books and nation wide abstinence policies as a replacement for other birth control methods.   Is this not attempting to place Christian values and the bible as "the highest authority in America" ?

I agree with 48Highlander, but I wanted to add that they (religious groups) wanted to add a little disclaimer in the front of the book saying evolution is not a fact it is a theory. They never tried to remove it completly. And from what I understand about Bush wanting abstinence is to have it taught being the most important and effective birth control, not completely in place of all the rest.

 

[CivU]

When you speak of most religions, I get the distinct impression your speaking primarily of "the big three" monotheistic religions that have come to be most readily recognizable and influential on our value systems familiar to us.  I think this ignores the values of many religious followings.

As far as evolution.  It is a fact.  Everyday science witnesses the evolution of numerous life forms.  From the evolution of wolves into domesticated dogs and the adaptations of their features to the AIDS virus and its ability to respond to and counter nearly every attempted cure, evolution is a scientific reality.  In terms of birth control, at the expense of digressing, studies show abstinence is one of the least effective forms of birth control.  Simply put, it doesnt work.  People do not abstain, and in this day and age, contraceptive methods are the only realistic approach to dealing with issues of STI's and pregnancy.

 

[LF(CMO)]

"As far as evolution.   It is a fact"   The FACT is it's just another theory.

" abstinence is one of the least effective forms of birth control" If you take any courses on logic, you're going to have trouble!

  "the big problem with discusing religion is that religion is not Logical at all so you cant have a logical debate on it."   Many years ago a Cree elder said to me, "religion is like music, either you got it or you don't got it".   Very wise observation!  

 

[CivU]

"abstinence is one of the least effective forms of birth control"

Interesting you'd consider this illogical.  While we are digressing far from the initial topic, I wonder if we were to run a poll on the effectiveness of abstinence over other contraceptive forms, what the outcome would be.  If you think abstinence is in reality, and not in theory, the most effective form of birth control, then it would certainly be practiced more than the use of condoms, the pill, etc.

As far as evolution goes, it is a fact.  They just forget to mention that in Sunday school.  Plenty of evidence exists to support evolution in our every day lives.  Read Steve Jones "Darwins Ghost" its based in more reality than your scripture.

 

[Kat Stevens]

As far as my research indicates, the only person who ever abstained and got preggers occured a little over 2000 years ago, somewhere in the Middle East.  It was in all the papers, I believe...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[atticus]

"abstinence is one of the least effective forms of birth control"

Interesting you'd consider this illogical.   While we are digressing far from the initial topic, I wonder if we were to run a poll on the effectiveness of abstinence over other contraceptive forms, what the outcome would be.   If you think abstinence is in reality, and not in theory, the most effective form of birth control, then it would certainly be practiced more than the use of condoms, the pill, etc.

As far as evolution goes, it is a fact.   They just forget to mention that in Sunday school.   Plenty of evidence exists to support evolution in our every day lives.   Read Steve Jones "Darwins Ghost" its based in more reality than your scripture.

The reason abstance doesn't work for one person is because their having sex. Thats not abstinence, thats having sex. People should be taught about all forms of birth control, not just abstinence but they should know the 100% way to not get somebody pregnant is to not do it.

Oh really, evolution is a fact? Where is your evidence that you seem to have? I don't see any. I've spent the last year in collage studing biology and I still don't see evolution as a fact. There is no evidence, it's just a theory. A virus adapting isn't evolution its microevolution, which is a fact. Wolves into domestic dogs sure as heck aint anything close to monkeys into man, it too is microevolution. Natural selection isn't evolution either. Macroevolution is where, say, a dog has a baby thats a monkey, and I sure haven't heard of that ever happening. Where is this evolution you speak of?

The bible may not be anti-semitic, but it certainly does advocate murder for such "crimes" as homosexuality and bigamy.

I know you may not believe the bible or anything but I just wanted to say that there is the old testament, and the new testament. The old testament is where you find the verses that say to kill anybody who is homosexual, prostitute, ect. The new testament is where Christ (God), comes and changes that so we do not have to kill anybody. It doesn't condem war (in fact their are certain times when it encourages it, like the situation in WW2). The new testament says to follow the ten commandments, and to not hate the person who is sinning but the sin. This would be where it relates to homosexuals. Obvously in Christianity, homosexuality is a sin as is belonging to other religions, but it does not mean for Christians to go out and kill thousands of people, instead it says to go out and treat them like a brother, sister, father, mother (depending on the person I guess).

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not sure where the tangent arguments are coming from, but I'm going to shoot my two cent in (and split off the tangent debate)....

First, relying on abstinence is like relying on people to hold their breath to avoid catching the flu.   You're fighting some pretty deep and instinctive hormonal functions.

Oh really, evolution is a fact? Where is your evidence that you seem to have? I don't see any. I've spent the last year in collage studing biology and I still don't see evolution as a fact. There is no evidence, it's just a theory. A virus adapting isn't evolution its microevolution, which is a fact. Wolves into domestic dogs sure as heck aint anything close to monkeys into man, it too is microevolution. Natural selection isn't evolution either. Macroevolution is where, say, a dog has a baby thats a monkey, and I sure haven't heard of that ever happening. Where is this evolution you speak of?

Question 1:   Why are there dinosaur fossils that are 200 million years old (determined through scientific FACT, not theory) and yet human fossils (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) are only 120,000 to 100,000 years old?

Question 2:   Why do so many interesting anthropologic and genetic events seem to occur over a huge period of time all before that magic date somewhere in the 4,000 BC timeframe (In the Beginning...)?

This is not an attack on religion, merely a questioning of the dismissal of scientific progress due to a conflict with dogmatic interpretation of scriptures (which are ultimately human).

"...the Biblical chronology is about a million times shorter than the evolutionary chronology. A million-fold mistake is no small matter, and Biblical scholars surely need to give primary attention to resolving this tremendous discrepancy right at the very foundation of our entire Biblical cosmology. This is not a peripheral issue that can be dismissed with some exegetical twist, but is central to the very integrity of scriptural theology."

Henry Morris, The Biblical Basis for Modern Science

 

[LowRider]

the Biblical chronology is about a million times shorter than the evolutionary chronology. A million-fold mistake is no small matter, and Biblical scholars surely need to give primary attention to resolving this tremendous discrepancy right at the very foundation of our entire Biblical cosmology. This is not a peripheral issue that can be dismissed with some exegetical twist, but is central to the very integrity of scriptural theology

."


I am interested to know how exactly you can pinpoint biblical chronology as it relates to Genesis,when throughout the bible there is constant emphasis on the fact that our perception of time is in fact meaningless compared to god's perception of time.

 

[chaos75]

Whats to debate?  Religion is the biggest scam in history perpetrated on the poor and ignorant, to explain events before the inception of science.  Since then it has become the worlds largest institutionalized, bureacratic, and milatriristic business in the world. Somerthing good happens, must be god, something a little bad happens, must be gods plan, something terrible happens, well thats the devil.

There is a reason the church and state have been separted for so long, and now there is the danger of them becoming fused and polarized in the US which has only led to more war, more death (and now they want to invade Iran).

Evolution is sound scientific fact, if you doubt this, read some Darwin, and the most recent updates to his work (great article in the Nov National Geographic).  At least science can explain why things happen, whereas religion makes you put faith in something that has no proof whatsoever.  Ask yourself what will happen when we discover another earth like planet, or bacteria on a distant moon or asteroid, will another "version" of the bible be miraculously found to explain away those mysteries as well??

But to each their own, I respect your right to believe, and hopefully you respect those of us who dont.

 

[LowRider]

 

Religion is the biggest scam in history perpetrated on the poor and ignorant, to explain events before the inception of science.

Interesting how at the end of your post you claim to respect others beliefs,yet you believe anyone who is a christian is inherently ignorant?

 

[48Highlander]

Sorry, but anyone who says that "evolution is sound scientific fact" really doesn't understand much about science.

Evolution is a theory.  A thoery which we can back up with lots of circumstantial evidence, however, it's still a theory.  There's always the posibility that dinosaur fossils are a giant prank pulled on us by a God with a really good sense of humour

Don't get me wrong, I beleive in evolution a lot more than I do in God, but I'm not going to make the mistake of saying it's "sound scientific fact".

 

[CivU]

"The reason abstance doesn't work for one person is because their having sex. Thats not abstinence, thats having sex"

If a condom doesn't work the method is considered faulty. If abstinence doesnt work, which it does not, then it too is flawed.  Abstinence does not work because 99% of people can not practice it.  On the other hand, when used properly, condoms work 98% of the time.  I think its easy to see the effective difference.

As far as a dog producing a monkey being an example of evolution, I'd ask for a refund from your university.  Their biology program is clearly lacking in credibility and scientific depth.  Microevolution is a scientific fact, why is it that macroevolution is not?  Read Steve Jones "Darwin's Ghost" for a number of examples on contemporary evolutionary findings.

 

[Torlyn]

Whats to debate?  Religion is the biggest scam in history perpetrated on the poor and ignorant, to explain events before the inception of science.

Evolution is sound scientific fact, if you doubt this, read some Darwin, and the most recent updates to his work (great article in the Nov National Geographic).  At least science can explain why things happen, whereas religion makes you put faith in something that has no proof whatsoever.  Ask yourself what will happen when we discover another earth like planet, or bacteria on a distant moon or asteroid, will another "version" of the bible be miraculously found to explain away those mysteries as well??

But to each their own, I respect your right to believe, and hopefully you respect those of us who dont.

Wow.  I'm glad you informed the masses of people who are religious and believe that their beliefs are based on a scam.  I'm sure they're relieved.  It's nice that you have such... spirited... beliefs, but prove (scientifically, if you'd like) that ALL religions (or just the big three) are scams. 

As for hiding behind science, it used to be scientific FACT that the sun revolved around the earth...  Before that, the earth was flat...  Are you seeing a trend here?  Science falsely explains miracles just as you say the bible does.  If you haven't read the bible, you don't have a right to bash it as such.

T

 

[Torlyn]

If a condom doesn't work the method is considered faulty. If abstinence doesnt work, which it does not, then it too is flawed.  Abstinence does not work because 99% of people can not practice it.  On the other hand, when used properly, condoms work 98% of the time.  I think its easy to see the effective difference.

Your terminology leaves something to be desired.  Abstinence is the ONLY 100% effective method of birth control.  Abstinence works, IF IT IS PRACTICED.  What you are stating is a logical fallacy, which I think is where you're getting flak.  You must admit that if practiced, abstinence is 100%.  You can no longer call it abstinence when two people start having sex now, can you?

T

 

[a_majoor]

This is a thread just looking for trouble  ;D

A few pointers before I pop smoke and run...Separation of Church and State means the State should have no input into what religion you choose to practice. The state can neither support or deny the practice of a religion or sect. Agressive attempts to suppress Christianity is NOT part of this doctrine (i.e. the "Holiday Tree" sitting beside the Menorah).

A Theory in science is an idea which is used to explain observable phenomina and make predictions about that phenomina. There are several Theories of Gravitation, for example, and most only differ in regards to very extreme events, such as the Big Bang or around Black Holes. All the theories successfully predict that on Earth, you will fall to the ground at an accelleration of 9.8 m/s2. These theories also predict how fast you will fall on any planetary body, and can be used to plot your path from one planet to the other with a high degree of precision.

Evolution is a Theory by this definition, while Creationism is not. Sorry

 

[sigpig]

Interesting how at the end of your post you claim to respect others beliefs,yet you believe anyone who is a christian is inherently ignorant?

No, he specifically stated 'religious', not christian. You can respect someone's right to have a belief while believing it is ridiculous. 

Excellent post chaos75!!!!    You've nailed so many of my own thoughts. Religion came into being to explain the unexplainable to primitive people - Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, etc.
Ever hear of Mithraism? A religion which predates Christianity by centuries. Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity  are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

Wow, what a coincidence!! I'm sure the initial story writers of christianity wouldn't have borrowed much of their myths from an earlier religion..

Of course this is all pointless. LowRider and the other religious types will ignore all arguments from atheists such as myself, while I will blissfully ignore such quaint notions as belief and faith.

 

[Thirstyson]

Sure abstinence works if its practiced.

The problem is when its the only thing taught.

 

[CivU]

My message was clear, abstinence does not work because people do not practice it.  No point in pushing something onto young people that they will not use when important useful education is necessary and available.

"You must admit that if practiced, abstinence is 100%."

I don't disagree with this point. But maybe the religious posters would, after all, didn't Mary abstain?

 

[Torlyn]

No point in pushing something onto young people that they will not use when important useful education is necessary and available.

"You must admit that if practiced, abstinence is 100%."

I don't disagree with this point. But maybe the religious posters would, after all, didn't Mary abstain?

I agree with the first part whole-heartedly.  Education can do nothing but help.

As for Mary, I guess she did.  As I wasn't there at the time, I would be unable to confirm or deny her chastity. 

T