Get your Creation debate here!

[LowRider]

Of course this is all pointless. LowRider and the other religious types will ignore all arguments from atheists such as myself, while I will blissfully ignore such quaint notions as belief and faith.

Religious types?You wonder why i would choose to ignore arguments rooted in hatred and bigotry?
My beliefs are experience based,and nothing i would ever expect you to understand.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

....and I at this time, on behalf of 99.99% of atheists everywhere, would like to apologise to those who follow and believe any religion for the low-base pathetic posts by Chaos75 and Sigpig.
Don't let those who spew their own form of hatred make you doubt your own beliefs, I take my children to church and when I go back and visit Mom I take her to church, it is a very comforting place and I wished I believed but, alas, I don't.
This does not permit me to rant idioiticly in the public domain however and those that do should be ashamed.
Thank you,
Bruce

 

[Torlyn]

....and I at this time, on behalf of 99.99% of atheists everywhere, would like to apologise to those who follow and believe any religion for the low-base pathetic posts by Chaos75 and Sigpig.
Don't let those who spew their own form of hatred make you doubt your own beliefs, I take my children to church and when I go back and visit Mom I take her to church, it is a very comforting place and I wished I believed but, alas, I don't.
This does not permit me to rant idioiticly in the public domain however and those that do should be ashamed.
Thank you,
Bruce

Hear hear, Well spoken Bruce.  (um, NOT a Monty Python pun...)

T

 

[Infanteer]

Whats to debate?   Religion is the biggest scam in history perpetrated on the poor and ignorant, to explain events before the inception of science.   Since then it has become the worlds largest institutionalized, bureacratic, and milatriristic business in the world. Somerthing good happens, must be god, something a little bad happens, must be gods plan, something terrible happens, well thats the devil.

You've nailed so many of my own thoughts. Religion came into being to explain the unexplainable to primitive people - Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, etc.

Before you guys start spouting more of the Marxist opiate of the masses principles, you better suck back and try and emphasize with the others instead of regarding their faith as a set of blinders.

I've argued before that religion is the communalization of faith and that faith is one's own interpretation of cosmological and spiritual concepts.  Before you denigrate religious people by equating their belief with falling for some 1-800 phone scam, try to remember that their convictions are deep and personal - they don't need a priest or figurehead to confirm their spiritual (as opposed to religious) values (they have their faith) and they (and the moderators) certainly don't need you to tell them they're wrong for it.

Sorry, but anyone who says that "evolution is sound scientific fact" really doesn't understand much about science.

That is 100% correct.  There is a difference in science between a Law and a Theory.  However, I still presented my two questions along with the quote (coming from someone from a religious viewpoint) in order to defend the fact that even Theories are based on observable phenomenon and that to dismiss the evidence along with the Theory is wrong.

As well, I attempted to point out that while the existence of this phenomenon may contradict literal translation of scriptures, it in no way repudiates any larger claims to Divinity (or Divinities, depending on your outlook).

 

[Infanteer]

I will echo the statement of Bruce as well.  One should be able to approach the argument without denigrating others.

Excellent post chaos75!!!!     You've nailed so many of my own thoughts. Religion came into being to explain the unexplainable to primitive people - Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, etc.

The fact that you consider Greeks, Romans, Persians, etc, etc as "primitive" just goes to show your lack of any ability to step out of the present context and displays an arrogant assumption that this particular point in history represents some sort of apex of progress.

The human condition remains the human condition....

 

[48Highlander]

Sorry infanteer...I should get in the habit of quoting whom I'm replying to.  My post wasn't directed at you.  I thought your points were all very well thought out and clearly and accurately stated.  I also absolutely agreed with you.  I think there's plenty of evidence to support the theory of evolution.  I was just trying to point out how the scientific method works to someone else who called evolution a "scientific fact".  Without the proper use of the scientific method, science becomes no more beleivable than religion.

And yes, add my voice to Bruce's statement also.  The reasons people beleive in religion today has nothing to do with how it may have gotten it's start.

 

[Infanteer]

48,

I guess I should have made my intent clear as well. 

I wasn't targetting your statement, I only used to highlight the fact that yes, Evolution is a Theory - contrary to those on both side of the arguement who seem to offer (or repudiate) evolution as a fact.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[chaos75]

I always find it funny when people who claim to be open-minded and respectful, tend to say things like 'low-based', 'pathetic' and 'hatred'.  Personally I dont hate religion or religious people.  What I do not like is some religious people who have a tendancy to shove their beliefs down your throat.  If you want to believe fine, do it, just dont try to convert others.  As for religion not being a business unto its own, I can pose some simple questions:

1) Why do you have to tithe in some religions, what does god need with your money?
2) Why do you need churches, with ministers to 'interept' the bible for you?  Why cant you just pray at home with friends, have some coffee, interpret the words the way you want too.
3) What gives anyone the right to be a minister in the first place?  Did Jesus or god appoint somebody, and gave them the power to appoint who they think should be the representatives of god on earth?  Oh wait that was just the church again..


Now according to some, even other atheists, im just ignorant and low-based myself, oh and I hate religious people dont forget that one, but maybe I feel more enlightened because I can sit back and objectively form opinions on my own about the world and how it all started by looking at the facts, that includes reading the bible before as well, while others just go on blind faith because for the most part that is the way they were rasied.  Feel free to take more shots at me now.  Cheers.

 

[bluenose_boy]

Unfortunately, these arguments always seem to fall on deaf ears on either side. As a Christian I already have my mind made up -- that doesn't mean I can't see that evolution is an attractive theory on the surface and engage in a meaningful dialogue. For our non-religious friends out there, they will always see religion as stupid, mostly because they don't have any faith and that is what is needed to understand, otherwise it will all seem like foolishness. If you read your Romans, you can see that it is expected that people aren't going to believe in a God unless they are ready, and are blind to what Christians feel is the truth.

I used to wonder how people could be so stupid and believe in a God until it happened to me -- now I have pulled a complete 180 and wonder how people can look at the unbelievably complex world around them and not think "this can't all be an accident." Basically, your evolution theory states that by a series of flukes over millions of years, complex life has developed. That's like thinking if a tornado swirls through a car plant long enough, it will eventually produce a shiny new Mustang. It's ludicrous to believe that could ever happen. You don't have to go to church every Sunday to see that.

For every book and scientific principle some of you state as "fact", I can find you a creation science book written by respected scientists that "proves" just the opposite. Try "The Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel, that oughta get ya started.

Personally, the fact that all these people in Canada and around the world are so bitterly opposed to Christianity/Judaism, but not really any other religions, just reinforces my beliefs.

Just my two cents... My apologies if this double-posted by accident

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Choas75,
Naw, with a post like that it would be too easy, the proverbial  "fish in a barrel".....next!

 

[atticus]

I didn't realize so many had posted when I was writing this, but I decided to post this anyways because I took so darn long find my Oxford dictionary of Biology.

Question 1:   Why are there dinosaur fossils that are 200 million years old (determined through scientific FACT, not theory) and yet human fossils (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) are only 120,000 to 100,000 years old?

Question 2:   Why do so many interesting anthropologic and genetic events seem to occur over a huge period of time all before that magic date somewhere in the 4,000 BC timeframe (In the Beginning...)?

1: The system used to get a date for fossils of dead animals and rocks is extrememly flawed. Its been shown in the last few years that a freshley killed seal is dated to about 10 to 20,000 years old. In Drumheller (sp?) scientits have been caught lying about the age of dinosaurs and taking bones from one animal to another to create an "older" species; in Texas in about '98 palentologists have been caught lying to the media about human foot prints being found along with dinosaur foot prints. (if your wondering I get my facts from Dr. Kent Hovind's series of tapes about evolution vs. creation and Inquiry into Life by a different author).

2. Do you mean the Beggining where God created the earth? There are many different theories as to why the huge period of time. Some think that the "days" were acually many thousands of years (its written that one day on earth is a thousand years in heaven, and that one day in heaven is a thousand years on earth, meaning that there was no time before God created it). We weren't created until the sixth day I think, so that would leave a few thousand years for animals to roam the earth until the creation of man.


I find it interesting that evolution states that all creatures evolve on their own with natural selection helping weed out the weak but that all creatures have the exact same cilia in their bodies (we have them in our lungs and women have them in their reproductive organs). You'll find the same cillia from us to some creature in the farthest depths of the ocean.

As far as a dog producing a monkey being an example of evolution, I'd ask for a refund from your university.  Their biology program is clearly lacking in credibility and scientific depth. Microevolution is a scientific fact, why is it that macroevolution is not? Read Steve Jones "Darwin's Ghost" for a number of examples on contemporary evolutionary findings.

Macroevoltion basically means anything can get pregnent and have a baby that could be anything. That is why macroevoltion is not a fact but microevolution is. A dog producing a monkey was never taught in my collage but it is an example of macroevolution. I will try and find a copy of Darwins Ghost but you should try to find a copy of Darwins original unedited dairy from his voyage on the HMS Beagle (if you can find this on the net send me the url, I can't find it) and the book The Case for a Creator, both are very interesting books

From the Oxford Dictionary of Biology:
macroevolution - Evolution on a relatively large scale, involving, for example, the emergence of entire groups of organisms, such as the flowering plants or the mammals.

microevolution - Evolution on a relatively small scale, involving the emergence of new species, or of new groups below the species level, such as races and subspecies.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Whats to debate?   Religion is the biggest scam in history perpetrated on the poor and ignorant, to explain events before the inception of science.   Since then it has become the worlds largest institutionalized, bureacratic, and milatriristic business in the world.

A very apt description of the religion of science...

 

[sigpig]

Religious types?You wonder why i would choose to ignore arguments rooted in hatred and bigotry? My beliefs are experience based,and nothing i would ever expect you to understand.

Wow, that was great for a laugh, thanks. Is it not religion that tells you to hate someone because they don't have the same religion as you? Is it not religion that is fueling the bigotry towards gays in the US these days?

Coming in as an atheist you don't have some humans interpretation of an old book telling you who to hate and be bigoted towards. That is a good thing.

 

[Infanteer]

<klaxon-klaxon>

I can see this is going nowhere fast...

5...4...3...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Sigpig,
Coming in as an atheist you don't have some humans interpretation of an old book telling you who to hate and be bigoted towards.

...no it would appear to this atheist that you have done that all on your own.

...2...1....

 

[sigpig]

....and I at this time, on behalf of 99.99% of atheists everywhere, would like to apologise to those who follow and believe any religion for the low-base pathetic posts by Chaos75 and Sigpig.Thank you,
Bruce

I didn't know you are an acquantaince of all atheists everywhere and are qualified to apologiize for the 99.99% of them who find Chaos75 and I to be raving idiots. Funny, on the atheist sites I frequent, I'm one of the moderate ones.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and I'm supposed to be suprised???

 

[chaos75]

A very touchy subject which ever side of the fence you are on...now lets do some talking about something I mentioned before, the impending US invasion of Iran...wheres the thread about that.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

        DING!          DING!          DING!                  DING!              DING!          DING!                DING!    DING