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Globe and Mail polls on military spending

bossi

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As several members have pointed out, Canadians do seem to support increased defence spending ... however, they don't seem to want to pay for it by increasing taxes.
Accordingly, perhaps our only hope is for cabinet to give the CF a slice of the federal budget surplus ... ?

1.  What is the best short-term plan to help Canada's military?
a.  Reduce peacekeeping commitments or stop them altogether - 2064 votes  (15 %)
b.  Dramatically increase funding and training - 8700 votes  (63 %)
c.  Leave things as they are - 2345 votes  (17 %)
d.  Reduce personnel and rely more on NATO and the U.S. to protect us - 805 votes  (6 %)
Total Votes: 13914

2.  In yesterday's poll almost two-thirds of respondents wanted to see the federal goverment dramatically increase military spending. Therefore, would you be willing to accept a small tax increase if it were devoted to helping the Canadian Forces?
a.  Yes - 1669 votes  (43 %)
b.  No - 2169 votes  (57 %)
(N.B. this poll is not yet complete) 
 
Whatever the government decides there will no doubt be a huge political spin on it.   Paul Martin plans to create a 'Peacekeeping Brigade', wishing to point to something tangible for the next election.   No word on where those troops and equipment will come from (much like the ad hoc DART team scrounged from units across Canada)?.   The Liberals will continue to run down military personnel capital and remain blissfully unaware that in the next 3 years up to 25% of the forces will be eligible to retire, notwithstanding raising the retirement age to 60.   This policy will only demoralize the lower ranks further as they see the carrot of promotion being moved further away.   The rust out won't be at the very senior level but Officers and NCOs reaching the 20 - 25 year service mark.

The recruiting and training system is in no shape to deal with an intake of 5,000 to 7,000 per year as it did in the 60s to early 80s.   While teaching in Borden earlier this year I was surprised by how few permanent staff there were.   All the instructors on our course were incremental staff, meaning our permanent positions were not staffed.

Obviously this is very cynical, but I don't believe the Liberals are looking far past the next confidence motion in Parliament.   They are not concerned at looking 5 years down the line but will settle for a politically expedient solution that will do little to solve military problems in a sustainable manner.
 
I just took that poll. I asnwered no. Why should i accept a small increase in my taxes to support the military. I am already paying 45% in taxes every year. Billion dollars for gun registry, 1.7 Billion missing in aboriginal affairs, 1 billion missing in HRDC, sponsorship, 47 billion EI surplus... I'm sure they could find the money somewhere else other than my pocket.
 
exactly.  the federal government takes in over $400 billion annualy.  out of that the CF is getting less than $14 billion.  if we elected some competent politicians for a change there'd be no reason to raise taxes.
 
I can't believe in the first poll, 805 people voted for D.
 
Once again the touchy feely nature of the Canadian population shines through. Of course noone wants a tax increase. I sure don't. Medicare!!!! Thats whats going to save us!!!! We could innoculate terrorists! Wait, we do....The world knows it......Their families anyway (Somalia's Warlord Aidid had his family of 4 or 6 living in Toronto, on Welfare) The idea of a peacekeeping brigade.....Noway.....Thats all we need. A unit of tree huggers......All recruiting for that should be done in Toronto or better than that they should call it the UBC (university of British Columbia) Bttn.....Initial kit issue will include Birkenstocks, a bag full of BC Bud and a pipe.......Canadian soldiers, trained to fight in WAR have historically shown, care and compassion to those they have helped as peacekeepers. I worry that the 'peacekeeping' mentality would prevail rather than battle sense...'This will never happen to us, we're peacekeepers!!!'.....Blue Helmets get slaughtered all over the world and there is no political will to involve the UN in a serious fight........IMO we're better off relaunching the C.A.R. and giving the young troops a challenge and something to work for to get into it. It will give Canada the rapid reaction capability (if we get the aircraft anyway) we're looking for, rather than the piece meal responses our federal gov't has been able to muster in the past. I'm still surprised the Chretien had the ba**s to send 3VP to Afghan. I maintain they did a good job, but should have been allowed to work to their capabilities. No political will.
Don't get me started on the politicians. Watching us wind down to 80 troops in Bosnia, and the half a**ed job they're going to be able to do, through no fault of their own..........Grrr......IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!! Gun registry..........Argh!!!

Canadian military personnel, and the Canadian population deserve better protection than we in the CF can provide at the moment under current conditions. As usual the Canadian soldier and their families are making the larger sacrifice to fulfill political ambitions rather than what should be the primary concern...........Defence of Canada and the ability to FIGHT to protect Canadian interests around the globe.

Short staffed, ill equipped and hanging on by a thread...........You go, I go, we go....(I loved Backdraft)

Always proud to be a soldier, less proud of our civiallian masters in Ottawa..........Sorry for the rant everyone.......The Canadian population should be ashamed of themselves for allowing the government, to allow things to get to this point.
:threat: :salute: :cdn:
 
Quit sitting on the fence Hitman, tell us how your really feel.  ;)
 
I think the thing that is really interesting here is the 41% that said they would be willing to pay increased taxes to support the military.  Along with numbers that said that more money for the Forces I think that is significant and encouraging.

Keep in mind the following:

The Federal Gov't just announced a 9.1 BCAD surplus, and the people that took this poll know it.

All Canadians "know" they are being overtaxed and tax cuts have a strong and some would say growing constituency.

From reviewing previous G&M online polls you cannot accuse the people that take these polls/read the G&M onlines of being far right conservatives.  They are the original Liberals (George Brown supported Alexander MacKenzie against John A. MacDonald - dam the country's gone doon hill since we let the Government slip oot o' Scots hands, oh well, another story ;))

If this large a number is making this claim, I think it can be argued that the knowingly want to send a message of support.

 
Bograt sure the gov't is a screw up and those examples you listed should never have happened but they did.  If we want to continue to live in a nice terrorist free place and be the shining example for other nations to look upon then we need a much stronger military to ensure it stays that way.  Times have changed and we can't rely on our good nature and politeness to prevent terrorism or preventing some African warlord taking advantage of how weak we truly are.  Sure the gov't should take a step back and only worry about health, education and the military (more or less) and stop worrying about special interest groups.  Until that happens though we are going to have to pony up the money and more importantly spend it wisely if we want to continue having the freedoms we do.  No one likes to pay taxes period but something has to happen now.  If we don't like how the gov't does things then we have the option of electing a new similar corrupt one in a year or so.
 
I disagree. It not about increasing taxes to pay for increased spending, but rather reallocating the funds available for defence spending. My family spent 20K in provincial and federal tax last year. We currently pay a babysitter under the table because we can't afford to pay the CPP and EI payments. My province has a 15% sales tax on all good and services. An added tax is unacceptable because of the resources that are allocated are not being spent appropriately.

The liberals were reaping the benefits of the "Peace dividend" and now that our military   is in such a state they want us pay for it-   No, no , no. How about reallocating the money defined as the peace dividend to poured back into the military.

The Liberals are using this "Military Tax" idea as a tool to distract from the real issue- their negligence. Peace doesn't come free, I know, but the money is there. We only spend 1.1 % of GDP on defence. Its not a mater of increasing general revenue, it is a question of allocation. Its like giving a teenager 20 bucks to go to the store and buy milk and bread. He comes back with 18 bucks worth of porn, candy and a movie rental- and asks for more money to get the essentials. Ummm, sorry no.

my 2 cents (pun intended)
 
I hate the Liberal Government's spending practices to the point I would argue some of them should be in jail, but all other things being equal I would accept a tax increase to re-arm and re-equip our armed forces.



Matthew.  :salute:  :cdn:
 
I wouldn't.  Don't get me wrong, I have no problem contributing my share to get the army where it should be.  But once you let Liberals raise taxes for whatever reason, they never go back down again.  Don't forget that the GST and the 10 cent per liter gas surcharge were supposed to be temporary, and now we've had them for over a decade with no indication that they'll ever go away.
 
Even if the liberals raised taxes for the use of the military, they wouldn't put it there. It would be used up for Quebec advertisers or development projects for Bombardier or some such. We'd never see the money. Just like the gas tax is supposed to pay for road infrastructre, but doesn't.
 
recceguy said:
We'd never see the money. Just like the gas tax is supposed to pay for road infrastructre, but doesn't.

Or money down-loaded to the Provinces is supposed to go to Health Care, but doesn't...it just pays for tax cuts!!!
 
The final results of the Globe and Mail poll are quite significant, if interpreted properly ...
First of all, a good number of taxpayers are willing to pay higher taxes in order to better fund our military (41%)
And, taking into account the previous poll, the vote to not increase taxes (49%) can be seen as an implicit vote to boost military funding from the federal budget surplus ...
Hmmm ...
I sure hope the smarmy little Liberal party backroom pollmeisters are paying attention ... and not simply spinning this for their own selfish pet projects (e.g. musical fountains in Crouton's riding ...)

In yesterday's poll almost two-thirds of respondents wanted to see the federal government dramatically increase military spending. Therefore, would you be willing to accept a small tax increase if it were devoted to helping the Canadian Forces?
 
Yes - 7186 votes  (41 %)
No - 10433 votes  (59 %)

 
 
The trouble is, defence isn't first and foremost a money problem.  I hasten to add that, yes, the CF is underfunded, but's that because of fundamental, underlying policy confusion, so the money problem is more of a symptom than a cause.

I'll offer an analogy.  In my civ life, I'm involved in aboriginal economic development.  Aboriginal development--the aboriginal "agenda"--is a confusing tangle of economic, social, cultural, health, environmental and legal issues.  The federal government approach to aboriginal affairs is based on an obsolete document--the Indian Act of 1912.  The government (governments, actually, as there are overlapping federal, provincial and, for some issues, even municipal jurisdictions at issue) have no clear policy vision.  Neither do the stakeholders...the various First Nations, aboriginal organizations and lobby groups.  The government wishes the whole thing would go away, but it won't; aboriginal activists and high profile events (roadblocks, suicides, confrontations, etc.) keep it in public view.  So, faced with an enormously complex problem with no easy or quick solution, the governmental response has been to throw money at it.  There have been enormous amounts of public funds invested in aboriginal development, and enormous amounts continue to be invested.  The result is a mess of incomplete or poorly considered investments in infrastructure, housing, etc., mismanaged funds, some cases of outright corruption and misappropriation, and almost no impact on the basic issues of chronic unemployment, poor health, below average educational achievement, substandard housing, poverty, etc. 

Similarly, defence...

...is a confusing tangle of economic, cultural, legal, regional, diplomatic and foreign policy issues.  The federal government approach to defence is based on an obsolete document--the White Paper of 1994.  The government has no clear policy vision for defence.  Neither do the stakeholders...the various Commands, arms, components and lobby groups.  The government wishes the whole thing would go away, but it won't; defence activists and world events (genocide, regional conflicts, WoT, US relations, etc.) keep it in public view.  Faced with a complex problem with no easy or quick solution, the governmental response....

Well, it certainly hasn't been to throw money at it.  But, as the aboriginal issue suggests, money is often a solution looking for a specific problem.  Before defence spending is changed to do more than cover current shortfalls, I'd like to see a fundamental defence review done, culminating in a new White Paper.  I'd like to see rational answers, put into a Canadian and allied strategic context, to such questions as:

-what do we want our Army to do?  Does Canada want to have a role in future high intensity conflicts?  Does that require a general war-fighting capability across the spectrum of conflict, or do we want to focus on providing specifc capabilities to allied coalitions?  Maybe this new peacekeeping bde is a good idea...maybe it isn't.  How do we know?  What sort of estimate was done to tell one way or the other?

-what do we want our Navy to do?  Do we want a deep-water capability to project power off-shore, or do we want to focus on coastal defence?  What role should the Navy have in sovereignty presence in remote areas?  Do we need submarines that can patrol under Arctic ice?  Or do some form of aircraft carrier capability, or strategic transport and sustainment?

-what do we want our Air Force to do?  Do we need high performance fighters to protect Cdn airspace?  Or do we want to focus on strategic lift?  What role should the Air Force have in sovereignty presence?

-more generally, to what extent should each of the services have specific roles, versus being integrated into a unified air-land-see capability?  Would  Canada's strategic interests be better served, for instance, by creating and maintaining something like a "Marine Expeditionary Force", with integrated land, air and naval combat capabilities?

Without such a review, we run the risk of creating capabilities we don't need, can't sustain, or turn out to be of limited value.  Canada will never be able to afford, nor would it need, a US style all-singing, all-dancing military capability (even the US can't afford the current US capability).  So what we need is a realistic, coherent and rational defence policy that Canadian people will endorse as reflecting a meaningful and realistic role for Canada in the world, and that they can and would support through public financing.  Right now, however, our defence investments are ad hoc, mismatched, with things being done in isolated "silos", that are frequently driven by short-term public perception issues (for instance, we need new helicopters to replace the Sea Kings.  No disputing the Sea Kings need to be retired...but why do they need to be replaced?  Do we actually need the capability they provide?  Or should those dollars be used for something else?  Without doing some real-world analysis, how will we know?)
 
I'll tell you one thing.....as badly as we need a Foreign Policy/Defence Review, I'd be willing to wait rather than generate a blueprint
that includes input fromt the likes of Carolyn Parrish and her ilk.



Matthew.  :threat:
 
You are right we do need a new look at what the forces should do but what if the next gov't doesn't follow that paper either.?? Sorry thinking out loud.
 
I may piss some people off by this next comment, but please this is public opinion, not mine. Gallop did a recent poll, before Martin was elected, and that poll was were the federal government should spend their money. Defence spending came tenth, after native affairs. The Canadian public wants answers as to why we buy second hand subs and why our troops are in light vehicles in Afghanistan, well there you have it. People s#@t on the Liberal government all the time. I say it is not their fault, I honestly think the government is spending our money the way Canadians want it spent. We the people are to blame.
 
I should probably get one of my more educated friends to answer this, but ... there's nobody else in the room ...
Anyway ...
In our parliamentary system of government, members of the House of Commons are elected to govern "on our behalf"
(i.e. do what's best for the nation).
Yes - during an election, it's a popularity contest - however, when "ruling" they're supposed to do what's best for Canada
(i.e. they're NOT supposed to continue the popularity contest ... that's only supposed to resurface a couple of months before the election ... hmmm ... I guess some of this logic goes out the window when it's a minority government, eh?  Oh, well ... we joined to defend our country, not to have fun ... chuckle!)
 
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