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yup!2 Cdo said:
Go figure. Who would have thought the military would take away our money.
- Thread starter THEONE
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2 Cdo said:
+1
foerestedwarrior said:
That's right...after 30 days, the TD benfits are reduced to 75%...I did TD in NDHQ for a bit and that's what happened on day 31. It's all good! I figure any time I'm not in my fart sack or a bivy bag, trying to scrounge JP-4 for my Kero-sun heater on a winterex in Wainright is a good thing! ;D
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2 Cdo said:
Well, as much as it is a far from healthy attitude, there is a grain of truth to it. DND funding priorities seem to be directly tied to what is on the news.
I can think of half a dozen good things that happened because the CF got too much bad press and was embarrassed into acting.
Story on soldiers using food bank = pay raises
Story on troops in Afghanistan with green cbts in desert = promises of desert kit
Stories on "dangerous" Sea King = maritime helicopter contract
I don't agree with it, but if public humiliation is the only way to get the DND to act, and someone has shoulders big enough to take the blame....
How much longer do you think it will be before the Tac Vest is replaced if nobody stands in front of a camera and says "look at this POS..."
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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I work in another Federal Department now and have seen that sometimes public exposure is the only way to get things fixed. Organizations will begin to decay unless given a good kick on a regular basis. The media should be the last resort if the proper channels don’t fix a clearly unfair/unsafe/unethical problem.
The military has a long history of screwing up peoples lives, soldiers by and large take it on the chin and keep soldiering. The problem is that the administration side of the military, which by and large is run on a day to day basis by civilians become lazy and isolated from the effects of policy and regulations as they have little accountability and little consequence. If the military fails to ensure that their people are taken care of, either through the command channels or through a powerful ombudsman then they deserve to get swatted now and again.
Also the military needs recruits, screw to many people around and word will get out that it’s not worth it and that means you won’t be able to recruit the caliber of people you want. Remember the old saying: Take care of the little things, and the big ones will take care of themselves.
The military has a long history of screwing up peoples lives, soldiers by and large take it on the chin and keep soldiering. The problem is that the administration side of the military, which by and large is run on a day to day basis by civilians become lazy and isolated from the effects of policy and regulations as they have little accountability and little consequence. If the military fails to ensure that their people are taken care of, either through the command channels or through a powerful ombudsman then they deserve to get swatted now and again.
Also the military needs recruits, screw to many people around and word will get out that it’s not worth it and that means you won’t be able to recruit the caliber of people you want. Remember the old saying: Take care of the little things, and the big ones will take care of themselves.
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I am the first one to say that the press is not our friend, and to keep it in the family. Having said that, there are times when keeping silent is allowing "the family" to continue to be corn-holed, and only a little public scrutiny will fix it. The government may know the truth, and the opposition may be OK with us taking it up the tail pipe, but they can't exactly admit that on camera in front of millions of voters that they must pretend to serve. I am probably doing a disservice to some of our MP's, but I know of several for whom it is too true. It is a tactic of last resort, and all efforts to solve the problem through channels must be pursued, or we are only allowing others to further permanently undermine our Armed Forces for temporary benefit.2 Cdo said:
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Just a quick note on some of the attitudes being displayed here by troops. If you think that it is okay to run to the press and whine anytime something in the Forces doesn't go your way, get out. You are not worthy of serving in the Forces. The military is not there to serve you, in fact you are there to serve it!
Selfish child-like behaviour that is being condoned by some on this site is why I decided to release at the end of my twenty and not stay any longer. The attitudes displayed by more and more serving members are rapidly becoming more selfish with a me-first line of thinking, and members on this site seem to think that is the way things should be run!
Absolutely ridiculous, what will become of the Forces if this attitude is allowed to continue and grow? Thankfully I won't be around to see it. To all those who also abhor this tumourous, selfish attitude, I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you can put a stop to it!
Selfish child-like behaviour that is being condoned by some on this site is why I decided to release at the end of my twenty and not stay any longer. The attitudes displayed by more and more serving members are rapidly becoming more selfish with a me-first line of thinking, and members on this site seem to think that is the way things should be run!
Absolutely ridiculous, what will become of the Forces if this attitude is allowed to continue and grow? Thankfully I won't be around to see it. To all those who also abhor this tumourous, selfish attitude, I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you can put a stop to it!
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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You're releasing from the Canadian Forces, who probably needs BTDT NCOs like yourself largely inpart because of what is being said on army.ca? Or do you mean here where you are stationed?
In any case I'm honestly sorry to hear that. Younger troops like myself have a lot to learn from guys like you. If you're not around to show us how to stay alive then who will?
I don't think anyone will condone running to the press anytime you don't like something (runt o army.ca instead
) I'm pretty sure the guy who made the comment in the first place said it sarcastically. I don't think anyone is cool with soldiers whining to the media however you have to admit GO! brought up a very good point.
Some of the MAJOR changes in our military have infact been due to soldiers involving the media.
new kit (operation clothe the soldier, who in the CF hasnt benifitted from that?!)
Pay raises so our soldiers aren't eating out of food banks. Eating rations while overseas is one thing. Eating them at home after work is another.
Condition of PMQs.
That crap with the iltis.
list goes on.
While whining is unprofessional, agreed, sometimes you can get interesting results if you apply pressure from certain outside agencies.
In any case I'm honestly sorry to hear that. Younger troops like myself have a lot to learn from guys like you. If you're not around to show us how to stay alive then who will?
I don't think anyone will condone running to the press anytime you don't like something (runt o army.ca instead
) I'm pretty sure the guy who made the comment in the first place said it sarcastically. I don't think anyone is cool with soldiers whining to the media however you have to admit GO! brought up a very good point.Some of the MAJOR changes in our military have infact been due to soldiers involving the media.
new kit (operation clothe the soldier, who in the CF hasnt benifitted from that?!)
Pay raises so our soldiers aren't eating out of food banks. Eating rations while overseas is one thing. Eating them at home after work is another.
Condition of PMQs.
That crap with the iltis.
list goes on.
While whining is unprofessional, agreed, sometimes you can get interesting results if you apply pressure from certain outside agencies.
I would defend that soldiers, by bringing to light these issues ARE serving the military by putting us in a better position to accomplish the mission.
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March 27, 1995. Cpl. Neil MacKinnon, 1VP, was killed in a live fire excercise at Suffield. The official word was that he was killed in a grenade mishap, but in the course of covering this story for the Calgary Herald, the reporter sensed something was wrong when finding out from the coroner that the cpl was actually killed by a shot to the head. Using the Access to Information act, the reporter requested documents to find out what really happened; initial reports suggested that the cpl died as a result of a mistake on his part. After 20 months, the reporter and the family started receiving a clearer picture of what really happened, despite obvious delay tactics, and receiving briefings on the incident that were heavily blacked out. The result of the media investigation resulted in revealing a number of clear safety and training violations during the excersise, as well as the fact that the dnd tried to cover it up. The appropriate people in the chain of command were charged with negligence, and the family got the benefits they deserved, as well as the truth about their sons death that they most assuredly deserved.
There's a fine line between sucking it up and being taken advantage of; whining and speaking out when something is genuinely wrong. The media is far from a perfect institution, but all institutions are like that - including the military - and an important way any organization purges itself of corruption and changes for the better is when it uses the checks and balances that exist around it in order to fix itself. It would be ideal if institutions fixed themselves; sadly, many orgs get to a point where it becomes an echo chamber, and the members of that org can lack the perspective to do what's necessary to fix itself.
The media may have some strong biases when reporting on the military, but there are people in there who are always willing to do the right thing. I've read some good stuff by Chris Wattie, Peter Worthington, and (even though I hate her other intellectually-masturbatory stuff about her life), Christie Blatchford. The key is to develop judgment in what to fix by yourself, what to keep in the family, and what is genuinely wrong that needs help from the outside. And if that's the case, talking to the right people on the outside who you respect and trust to do the right thing, who will write the right story. Keeping an elite bunker mentality is all well and good for stuff like unit cohesion, but there's a time and a place for that, and a time and a place to reach out and develop relationships with the outside in order to keep the insides clean and healthy. Otherwise, you're just hurting yourself and the military that you love.
Not all media is evil. Not all reporters are self-interested wolverines that feast on a good story. And, despite the overwhelming opinion to the contrary (on this board, from all sorts of CFer's I've talked to from Col down to Pte), not all paffo's are remfy idiots. Seek out the right ones that can help you with the issues you need help with, and keep your military healthy so that it can do the job it needs to do without screwing over the men and women who constitute its parts.
There's a fine line between sucking it up and being taken advantage of; whining and speaking out when something is genuinely wrong. The media is far from a perfect institution, but all institutions are like that - including the military - and an important way any organization purges itself of corruption and changes for the better is when it uses the checks and balances that exist around it in order to fix itself. It would be ideal if institutions fixed themselves; sadly, many orgs get to a point where it becomes an echo chamber, and the members of that org can lack the perspective to do what's necessary to fix itself.
The media may have some strong biases when reporting on the military, but there are people in there who are always willing to do the right thing. I've read some good stuff by Chris Wattie, Peter Worthington, and (even though I hate her other intellectually-masturbatory stuff about her life), Christie Blatchford. The key is to develop judgment in what to fix by yourself, what to keep in the family, and what is genuinely wrong that needs help from the outside. And if that's the case, talking to the right people on the outside who you respect and trust to do the right thing, who will write the right story. Keeping an elite bunker mentality is all well and good for stuff like unit cohesion, but there's a time and a place for that, and a time and a place to reach out and develop relationships with the outside in order to keep the insides clean and healthy. Otherwise, you're just hurting yourself and the military that you love.
Not all media is evil. Not all reporters are self-interested wolverines that feast on a good story. And, despite the overwhelming opinion to the contrary (on this board, from all sorts of CFer's I've talked to from Col down to Pte), not all paffo's are remfy idiots. Seek out the right ones that can help you with the issues you need help with, and keep your military healthy so that it can do the job it needs to do without screwing over the men and women who constitute its parts.
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Quite a long post from someone who's never served. Frankly, we have internal mechanisms aplenty for dealing with most issues, and I don't have much time for those who go whining to the press because they don't happen to like the tac vest. I would suggest that there are almost NO instances where serving members should be going to the press, unless we're dealing with a dramatic institutional lapse of such huge proportion that there is no alternative.
Please don't tell me that you'll become the kind of PAFFO - all too prevalent over the years - that sees themselves as serving a higher journalistic calling, rather than providing advice and service to the chain of command. We certainly don't need 'em.
Please don't tell me that you'll become the kind of PAFFO - all too prevalent over the years - that sees themselves as serving a higher journalistic calling, rather than providing advice and service to the chain of command. We certainly don't need 'em.
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.......and now that it's gone right off topic, we can lock it.
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....... but after being accused of not acting fairly, it's reopened.
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I sent this verbatime to PAFFOMAYBE (and some other comments >
) as he clearly does not have a clue -- but I figured I would post this for edification purposes of the general public.
Futher comment: Comments like the above from paffomaybe are dumb, immoral and IF I could, I'd throat punch the cocker sucker for making them.
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Okay -- WRT the MacKinnon incident.
1) It was known very soon afterwards that the section C9 gunner had hit Mac (2I/C s team). (Smith the 2I/C is another worthless piece of work but that's another story)
2) The ARSO had gone up to the body to see if he was okay and when he moved him the grenade was released.
It was VERY shortly after that a BOI was formed and several people where charged.
Dave Hirter (then OC B 1VP) took the full brunt of the witchhunt and was demoted and banished
*despite Dave being a RRMC guy, JTF plank owner and one, if not the best officer I have ever worked for.
Dave released from the CF and went on to become a security contractor (circa 1995-today
Dave flew out (on his own dime) to the parents to explain what happend and took full responsibility (well he had to any way the CO and BDE Commander hung him out to dry)
The C9 Gunner suffered thru PTSD and recently after returning from Op Athena RotoII - just then agreed to take his JNCO and become a leader -- since he had been shirking away from any command responsibility until then. He is a capable troop and I hope now that he is exercising his demons he will be a solid Leader.
The C79 Elcan was found to be the culprit -- the solider was a new troop out of BSL (Hitler Line 9411 IIRC) and had never shot the weapon before they went live.
The sight was off tgt - 4, 4 ft screens to the left @ 100m.
The CO and Bde Commander walked away - ignoring their command responsibilities
By far and above the worst officers I have ever met
The ARSO (a sgt) was busy picking his ass with his arc stick talking to people than doing his job -- but he and the other NCO's walked - it was too soon after Somalia to hang a lower rank - so they needed a field grade officer
______________________________
1) I know several of the individuals in question personally
2) I am not anyone mentioned above
) as he clearly does not have a clue -- but I figured I would post this for edification purposes of the general public.Futher comment: Comments like the above from paffomaybe are dumb, immoral and IF I could, I'd throat punch the cocker sucker for making them.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Okay -- WRT the MacKinnon incident.
1) It was known very soon afterwards that the section C9 gunner had hit Mac (2I/C s team). (Smith the 2I/C is another worthless piece of work but that's another story)
2) The ARSO had gone up to the body to see if he was okay and when he moved him the grenade was released.
It was VERY shortly after that a BOI was formed and several people where charged.
Dave Hirter (then OC B 1VP) took the full brunt of the witchhunt and was demoted and banished
*despite Dave being a RRMC guy, JTF plank owner and one, if not the best officer I have ever worked for.
Dave released from the CF and went on to become a security contractor (circa 1995-today
Dave flew out (on his own dime) to the parents to explain what happend and took full responsibility (well he had to any way the CO and BDE Commander hung him out to dry)
The C9 Gunner suffered thru PTSD and recently after returning from Op Athena RotoII - just then agreed to take his JNCO and become a leader -- since he had been shirking away from any command responsibility until then. He is a capable troop and I hope now that he is exercising his demons he will be a solid Leader.
The C79 Elcan was found to be the culprit -- the solider was a new troop out of BSL (Hitler Line 9411 IIRC) and had never shot the weapon before they went live.
The sight was off tgt - 4, 4 ft screens to the left @ 100m.
The CO and Bde Commander walked away - ignoring their command responsibilities
By far and above the worst officers I have ever met
The ARSO (a sgt) was busy picking his ass with his arc stick talking to people than doing his job -- but he and the other NCO's walked - it was too soon after Somalia to hang a lower rank - so they needed a field grade officer
______________________________
1) I know several of the individuals in question personally
2) I am not anyone mentioned above
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Welcome to the world of being a full time soldier! How do you think we who are posted here year round feel? Can I go home to visit friends and family anytime I choose? No, I cannot. It's one of the many sacrifices we make (Res & Reg) to serve our country.
Imagine that, a soldier having to be separated from loved ones........... who knew? :
Regards
Imagine that, a soldier having to be separated from loved ones........... who knew? :
Regards
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Unless on a course, exercise, tasking or deployment, why yes! Some years this amounts to nearly 50% of the time, with the vast majority of that on FOA, not TD. Not alot of sympathy here.Ghost778 said:
I hate to break out the "army-isms" but you knew what you signed up for when you VOLUNTEERED for this deployment and the associated workup trg. It's not too late - just inform your CoC that you don't want to go anymore because there is no TD.
You want to be treated like the regs, and now you are - except this is the "bad" side of the common administrative fumbles. We get abused sometimes too.
If you never had it in the first place - did you really "lose" it? Last time I checked, those contracts do not specify a dollar amount that you are supposed to get paid.
Stop complaining - I know several hundred guys who would take your position - TD or not - for the opportunity to deploy.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Ahh you got me after I edited my post !
There are a bunch of arguments you can bring up,
-People would love to get a position on tour
-Were making lots of money since it's tax free
-Shit happens in the army
-Were not told we're given X amount of dollars in our contract (We were given a number on paper what we were entitled too though that has nothing to do with our contract, thats to do with our claim.)
I can't really argue any of that because it's all true your right.
Were lucky to have a spot on tour, no one is arguing that believe me.
Loosing out on 3 grand right before a month of leave due to an administrative loophole is shit, thats all. Like I said, everyone is going to have horror stories, i guess mine (ours) could be much worse
There are a bunch of arguments you can bring up,
-People would love to get a position on tour
-Were making lots of money since it's tax free
-Shit happens in the army
-Were not told we're given X amount of dollars in our contract (We were given a number on paper what we were entitled too though that has nothing to do with our contract, thats to do with our claim.)
I can't really argue any of that because it's all true your right.
Were lucky to have a spot on tour, no one is arguing that believe me.
Loosing out on 3 grand right before a month of leave due to an administrative loophole is shit, thats all. Like I said, everyone is going to have horror stories, i guess mine (ours) could be much worse
