Got the offer....

[3green]

With regards to the pay raise, it seemed to work like this for the 183's / 032's on my BOTC intake: DEO were paid Ocdt wages until completing BOTC, then given a raise to 2Lt pay with back pay to the date of enrollment. Some of us DEO guys were paid as 2Lt's even though we were Ocdt's, and the rumor was that if we failed BOTC, we would owe the difference between Ocdt and 2Lt pay for the time we were receiving the higher pay rate.

For CEOTP, they received Ocdt except for those who had completed commercial flight training from an "approved institution." Regular CEOTP's were paid Ocdt pay and remain an Ocdt until either wings qualification or completing a university degree (whichever occurs first.) Getting your wings will take you to at least Lt (maybe captain depending how long your training took) getting your degree will promote you to 2Lt.

CEOTP's who had the "approved institution" training were basically treated like DEO's, with 2Lt commissioning and 2Lt pay after BOTC grad. The approved thing is a select group of flight schools that the CF has deemed roughly equivalent to the Primary Flight Training program. If you went to an approved school and got your commercial licence, you also didn't have to complete CAPSS and will bypass PFT.

BE CAREFUL, because CFRC does not fully understand how the training system works. A friend of mine was commissioned as a 2Lt after BOTC and was receiving 2Lt pay. He was later demoted down to Ocdt, had his pay reduced and owed a great deal of money. This was financially a kick and somewhat embarrassing to have to have new ranks sewn on his flight suits midway through Moose Jaw. He had to find his commissioning scroll a few provinces away, have it mailed out to him and give it to the Adj. So the advice is if you're CEOTP and not from the "Approved / Bypass" group, don't spend all your money because they may realize the mistake later and make your life difficult. My buddy even wrote memo's telling the OR that he thought they made a mistake and no one could confirm it one way or the other for a year, until on course in the Jaw.

Good luck with your training.

 

[3green]

For OJT, my advice is try to see as many different communities as you can. You have very little control over what community you will end up in, but it's good to have an idea what you're getting yourself into when they ask you for your choices. 402 is a great Sqn, I was on OJT there as well. But I would suggest seeing as many different types of sqns and roles as possible. Between each course, I would aim for a different OJT experience. Choosing between different aircraft and locations is one of the most profound decisions to make (if you even get a chance to choose) and it's something that we have very little access to information in order to make an informed decision. Forums like this one and OJT are your best research tools into what you want to do.

I say this because people's choices change dramatically after they get an insight into different Sqns and experience military flying.

 

[Philly]

Hi all,

    I thought I would take this opportunity to finally present myself to the Army.ca Airforce community after having been an avid lurker for the past couple of years. Since everyone was talking about acceptance offers etc I thought I would share my experiences in case people were looking for patterns etc..

I had initially applied in August of 2003 for CEOTP when I was 21 and starting university, did ACS in March 04 and told that I would be called with further info/possible offer. Summer 04 came and went without any reply so I went back to the recruiting center and checked out what the latest was - wouldn't you know it but during the summer '04, and someone let me know if they saw this too, I found that CEOTP had been closed and folded into ROTP - I'm not sure of this but I have a feeling that they forgot to transfer the CEOTP files to the newly defined ROTP. Once again this is speculation from my observations of program definitions etc..

So I underwent the process again, minus the aptitude test and ACS. This time I was going into the 05 year under the ROTP program while attending university. That year I recieved a letter saying I was on the merit list - it was encouraging however I was not called that summer unfortunately. Luckly I got to spend the summer at Bagotville listening to all the pretty jets - albeit on the wrong side of the fence. So when I returned home to Mtl I redid the whole process for the 05-06 season. I must say that my motivation was at a minimal level as learned helplessness set in and being realistic I expected the same pattern, however within my heart I knew that I could not stop applying for the only profession I have ever wanted to do.

Now here comes the funny part - and I think everyone is shocked to a certain extent when they hear about this. So on 10 May 06 (nearing my 3 year application anniversary) I finally recieved the call that I had been accepted as ROTP pilot! Well I couldn't believe it needless to say, but that's not the kicker, the best part was not 10 minutes after the call I was hit by a car while on my bike riding to work! Luckly however I only recieved bruses.. considering that I flew 7 feet I felt very lucky!

So I did my transfer to the regs this past summer after returning from a posting to Cold Lake (unfortunately on the wrong side of the fence again, although I did get a tour of 409 sqn and met quite a few Marine pilots and their Harriers - they were using the ranges before deployment). Since the transfer I have been finishing off my Univeristy (I'll be done in Dec 07) and waiting for IAP, so for all those out there who are doing IAP this coming 7th May, I'll see you there!

To bring all this back into line with the current discussion, I do have some questions for some seasoned members in the know.

Once I finish my IAP in mid July - what will happen? I'm figuring OJT hopefully, however you'll never know until that time... what are the experiences of others?

Currently I'm living in Montreal and attending Concordia here - so I'm hoping that they might keep me local with 438 sqn. for OJT, but I'm willing to go anywhere! Anyone looking for a hard working 25 year old? I've got low mileage I swear!

In anycase, I'm pleased to meet you all and look forward to your ideas, sorry for that huge intro - I felt I needed to add my story to break the ice and properly introduce my experience so far... I look forward to anyones ideas about what might happen after IAP or OJT recommedations (yes I did read the OJT thread).

Keep up the spirit!

Chris

 

[Barracuda13]

Hi
First congrats and good luck Skidmark, we're both starting on the same date i believe. I'll see you in St.Jean

3green, thanks for the heads up, I have actually asked the recruiters about the pay but they just say that's what the offer says. I guess it's not really their problem. Hopefully something like that doesn't happen to me.

Don't the CEOTPs get retro pay once they reach Lt., so if they say I owe them money because I was promoted early and then let's say after getting my wings I get promoted to Lt ,what would likely happen?What happened to your friend after he finished moose jaw?

Does anyone have some more advice or information on this payscale issue? As I said before I ve already asked the recruiters at CFRC but they couldn't really say anything except what the offer says. Thanks again 3green

 

[3green]

Congrats on your offer. I still remember the details of when I got my call. In terms of after IAP, you will probably do BOTC. BOTC is usually the lingo used to describe your whole miserable experience in St. Jean (IAP and BOTC, which are generally run one right after another). I think the RMC kids get to do IAP, then BOTC later or something. They used to call it BOTC 1 and BOTC 2 I think. If you're finishing or already have finished your degree in civy university, I believe you'll do both together for a total of about 16 - 17 weeks. It changed a little right after I went through. Just play the game... get it done.

After completing your lovely stay in St. Jean, you will be farmed out to a Sqn or CFRC to do some quality OJT. You probably will have to fill out a form on BOTC with your preferences for OJT. Then you get waitlisted for your career courses. So if you have a by-pass you will be put on the list for Basic Flight Training in Moose Jaw (6-9 months long). Most people do not go that route, and are wait listed for Primary Flight Training in Portage (2-3 months, weather depending), then for BFT. Between BOTC and BFT, you will be scheduled for Aeromedical Training in Winnipeg, Sea Survival in Comox and Basic Land Survival Training in the woods north of Winnipeg. Those are all 1-2 weeks long, and a lot of fun. PFT and BFT are the big money pilot courses. From completing BOTC to completing BFT, expect 2 years-ish. Some guys do it in record breaking time (like a year and a bit) by being the guy who is ready to fill in whenever someone breaks a leg and cant go on course.

My buddy who was de-comissioned is remaining an Ocdt until he gets his wings. At that point, he will be promoted to Lt, but since we have been in the training system for long enough, he and I will be promoted directly to Capt. So he'll go from Ocdt to Capt right away. There is back pay; however, the back pay is only the difference between what you were being paid and Lt, and Capt, for the period of time that you should have been an Lt and Capt, if your training had not been delayed. I am a little sketchy on the details but I understand that means you should spend 1 year as a 2Lt/Ocdt, then 2 years as a Lt. If you don't get promoted after those time periods, you're entitled to back pay for the difference in pay between your 2Lt/Ocdt pay and what you should have been making as an Lt/Capt. It is not the difference between your Ocdt/2Lt pay and Lt Pilot/Capt Pilot. The difference is between the ranks within the GSO category. In addition, you will be taxed on all that back pay in the year you receive it. I have heard you can apply to Revenue Canada to have that income applied to previous years' income (since it was earned in years passed, just paid to you after the fact) to reduce your income taxes (puts income into lower brackets).

By the way, get yourself some safety goggles for those night-topo exercises in Farnham. Branches in the eye suck at night, especially for pilots.

 

[Philly]

Heck of a post 3green. Thanks for the info; I also have a friend at BFT right now, he had to wait a bit between his PFT and BFT - I believe he did OJT at 407 during that time. When I called my SEM a couple of weeks ago they said that I am only registered for IAP right now, although I did request to do both IAP and BOTP together, I've been told by many people this is easier since you are already there. And ditto on the motto "Just play the game", I think that's the hundredth time I've heard that, something must be right!

I hope it's a case of OJT after IAP if they are not letting me do the two back to back. Has anyone here done OJT at 438 before?

Cheers!

 

[SupersonicMax]

438 of Space Agency if you have interest in Science is GREAT apparently.  Only good comments from folks I know that were there.

Max

 

[Good2Golf]

438 ETAH...fly, then 25 minutes later, your sitting in the Peel Pub on St.Catherines...that's gotta rock!  8)

 

[pipstah]

or come join me and the guy who lost is 2lt in Valcatraz.... can't beat the 25 minutes of Montreal but with 30 minutes of driving to La Citadelle and La Grande Allée this is an hard spot to beat too... The mini-skirts season is about to arrive over there!! 

 

[Good2Golf]

Pipstah, got the PM but can't repy until at home on the weekend... 

 

[3green]

Doing OJT close to family is nice if you can swing it while in the training system. Enjoy it while you can. If you have a significant other, that may be a major consideration too - if he/she has a job and keeping your house, stability etc. as long as possible. However, those considerations aside, get out and see the country and the Air Force.

If you end up at 402 in Winnipeg, take the time to wander down the hall and chat up someone at 435. Get to know the whole organization because you never know where fate will take you. Or, 15 years into your career as a whatever pilot, you may want to make a dramatic change and go to a different community, different type of airframe etc. Maybe you leave your role as a Sea King guy, end up flying multi's somewhere, later on decide to fly jets etc. I know of people who have done this. It's good to have an idea what each role is like.

There is no bad job in the organization. For example, as much as everyone craps on the Sea Kings and their job with the fish-heads, all the guys in that community can't say enough good about how they have the best job in the Air Force. They say "thank god I didn't get selected for jets, even though I would have done anything at the time to get them." You have to keep an open mind because you never know what you will get in Moose Jaw. Some people end up in tears because they don't get their childhood dream as a jet pilot. They end up with helo's and are pissed. Other guys want helo's and are forced into jets. It depends on many factors. But be prepared to be any type of pilot, and when you're asked (as little importance as your choices hold) have a well informed answer to give.

 

[Philly]

I understand what you are saying. I have never really cared to set my heart on a particular airframe, flying just about anything is a dream. I sure hope that I will get a chance to sample a few, I'm not about to start being picky,

Good convo,

Chris

 

[pipstah]

Good2Golf:  check! 

I guess I would'nt be a good vendor for Valcartier! I could list all the restaurants and bars but that would be so long to do  ;D

 

[dardt]

438 ETAH...fly, then 25 minutes later, your sitting in the Peel Pub on St.Catherines...that's gotta rock!  8)

Ahh just in case you're looking for it they moved. It's on Peel now, just below St-Catherine.

They made it all classy and stuff now too (at least compared to the old place). I also heard they stopped recycling the draft beer.  ;D

 

[Skidmark]

Like I said earlier in this topic, I have been selected on mars 13th but I'm still haven't heard from the recruiting center for my job offer. I wonder if I can still go on the mid-april BTO in St-Jean.

Another thing, a friend of mine just came back from St-Jean (he applied for mechanics) and he told me that its really not physical at all. He also said that the Officer trainning is even easier. His instructor told them that they were on the roughest crew and my friend told me that they dont do enough push-up to exaust him. I'm doing my push-up every day and I'm jogging. I consider myself as being in good shape. But I still want to hear from you about what I should expect from the BTO.
This might have been discused before, if so, sorry about that.

 

[3green]

I would recommend that you call the RC and ask them. Keep on them because you could fall through the cracks. I used to work at a RC, and I can see how things can go awry in the maze of CF administration and paperwork. If you are going in mid-April, there's a bunch of paperwork that has to be done for you and swearing in etc. I would call because it's getting tight.

In terms of BOTC, it may have been previously addressed, but at the risk of covering it again I will give you my advice. The program changed a while ago to include a few extra weeks in the field I believe. In any event, I found it was not as physical as I had expected. It depends a lot on your platoon staff. Mine was a crazy marathon runner and wanted to be sure we knew that. We probably did 150 pushups over the whole 3.5 months we were there. Other staff had their people doing a lot more pushups, but less running. The running is not at a high level either, but they can go on for an hour + on some days, so be ready for that. It's amazing how some people show up, barely able to climb a flight of stairs. It's as if they had no idea that Basic Training implied some physical work. You will climb the equivalent to about 15 - 20 flights of stairs a day.

Some people hurt their backs and/or ankles etc. This is probably the biggest type of injury and something to be aware of. The ruck sack, webbing, C7, helmet etc. all adds up to a lot of weight in a very non-ergonomical setup. Much of the equipment is broken and cannot properly be adjusted (training system gets the hand-downs) If you put out your back, you can get re-coursed and that means being on PAT platton in St. Jean for months. Don't do this at all costs, unless you're going to permanently injure yourself, keep going. I would practice doing walks with a heavy backpack, to simulate the weight you will carry. The long walks with all your kit will be the most physically tiring part, and probably where you will be at greatest risk of injuring yourself. If your back really hurts, stop and stretch it out if you can.

Being really strong isn't a huge asset. Good cardio will help, but you need to be able to walk long distances with tons of weight. A lot of people hurt their backs when I was there and some are still dealing with it. If you get some medical note on your file, it can be the kiss of death as a pilot. I tried to stay away from the MIR as much as possible, especially because almost no one could speak english at the time. If you're legitimately injured or sick, go. Don't ruin your body for the rest of your career - or end it - because you're trying to be the hero. If there's a doctor or Physio on your platoon, make friends with them early! Just try to be in the best shape you can before you go because it will make everything easier on you, including trying to stay awake through boring classroom stuff.

A few things that my platoon really found useful: bring a set of safety goggles to Farnham for the night topo, branches in the eye really suck. Buy the best insoles you can find, use them when finding the correct size of boots. I went with Spenco insoles, about $40, and worth every cent. I think you can get them for free but you have to have an injury or something to justify it. It also requires one size larger boot in my case. I still use the same ones, they're amazing. Regardless of how much they are trying to quickly push you through supply, take the time to get the right size of boots. Get really good running shoes. Gold Bond powder is really nice on your sweaty feet, in your boots, and other places that chaffe. Bring chapstick and a small vial of Advil or whatever works for you. I used a small electric razor in the field, works way better than shaving with ice water. Change your socks all the time, it really helps. If it's cold, get polypro thermo underwear, but keep it hidden under your issued T-shirt. Even if you have absolutely NO HAIR, go the the barber when it's scheduled, pay him $8 to run an electric razor over your bald melon, and smile. If you can tether any of your kit to yourself, tether it. Swiffers are awesome for cleaning, as is Pledge. Be careful, Pledge makes things slippery. Good luck.

 

[Skidmark]

Thx for the reply, I had quite a laugh while reading it. I called at my RC today and the lady told me that if I theres no offer for me until friday, I wont go to St-Jean for April but I'll probably be on the August courses.
As for the training you suggest, I've worked for seismic job for a while and know exactly what is walking loooooooooong time with stuff on my back, across all type of terrain and mountain. It sure help to know better what kind of excercice they ask you to do when in St-Jean so once again, thanks a lot for your reply, really useful.