Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[MilEME09]

Up until Trump I was probably the biggest buy American mil hardware guy on this forum.

Now I think we need weigh our options. And where possible avoid buying American kit.

Now, it looks to me like our best 2nd and 3rd choices are Nordic nations and South Korea.

plenty of options with SAAB for kit, ditto for SK, i think we should have a hard look at the T-50 as our next fighter trainer

 

[daftandbarmy]

Up until Trump I was probably the biggest buy American mil hardware guy on this forum.

Now I think we need weigh our options. And where possible avoid buying American kit.

Now, it looks to me like our best 2nd and 3rd choices are Nordic nations and South Korea.

Or, you know, put on our Big Boy pants and build up our own defense industry...

 

[QV]

and surrender our sovereignty? that would be the first step towards trump trying to Annex us, saying europe is less aligned with our interests when the US unleashed a trade war on us is laughable. We have plenty of space, and labour we could set up a strong defense industrial base here.

The US has unleashed a trade war with everyone with the intended goal of tariff reciprocity across the board. We're not that special and shouldn't be taking it personally. Other countries have started to reduce their tariffs on the US. We doubled down - absolute wrong approach. Our politicians are using this to gin up more anti-American sentiment in the pursuit of staying in or obtaining office.

 

[OldSolduer]

Or, you know, put on our Big Boy pants and build up our own defense industry...

I would tend to agree with that IF our GoC - whoever it may be not actively obstruct business that generates payrolls, employs people and pays taxes.

 

[ytz]

Interestingly, I am reading that the federal liberals are seriously looking into both of the European 6th Gen fighter programs (with the British one being favored), would be a smart buy in for industry if we can get on as a partner with the Brits, Italians, and Japanese.

Makes sense as an industrial strategy to get leverage against the US by showing that we can spend more on defence and that they won't get as many of those dollars. While not sacrificing capabilities.

I like that we are looking forward and trying to lean into it.

But the here a now will punch us in the nose if we don't get the CF18s replaced soon.

I said this in the other thread. We're going mixed fleet. And GCAP is much better than ending up with a mixed fleet of Rafales....or worse: Gripens.

 

[OldSolduer]

I said this in the other thread. We're going mixed fleet. And GCAP is much better than ending up with a mixed fleet of Rafales....or worse: Gripens.

So in a Coles Notes version what are the issues with Rafale and Gripens?

Small words, short sentences please. Red crayon eater here......

 

[MilEME09]

The US has unleashed a trade war with everyone with the intended goal of tariff reciprocity across the board. We're not that special and shouldn't be taking it personally. Other countries have started to reduce their tariffs on the US. We doubled down - absolute wrong approach. Our politicians are using this to gin up more anti-American sentiment in the pursuit of staying in or obtaining office.

it isn't about taking it personally, its about a clear and real threat to our economy and our nation, yes the US has done it across the board but the answer isn't sucking up to them, and never will be.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Or, you know, put on our Big Boy pants and build up our own defense industry...

I would love that and we should be moving to establish that industry but until then....

 

[ytz]

So in a Coles Notes version what are the issues with Rafale and Gripens?

Small words, short sentences please. Red crayon eater here......

Mostly that they are 4th/4++ gen. Is it really worthwhile to get these when we're actually transitioning to 5th gen and retiring our 4th Gen?

 

[ytz]

it isn't about taking it personally, its about a clear and real threat to our economy and our nation, yes the US has done it across the board but the answer isn't sucking up to them, and never will be.

There's a weird idea that if we bend over harder, they'll yield. Yet, Carney actually taking a hardline last week actually got a bit more respect from Trump.

End of the day, the only way to build leverage is to have something they want. Saying you'll go from 90% of your procurement dollars going to the US to 95% isn't going to help. Saying you'll go from 90% to 70% will get their attention.

 

[ytz]

The US has unleashed a trade war with everyone with the intended goal of tariff reciprocity across the board. We're not that special and shouldn't be taking it personally.

I'm guessing you don't know anybody who works in an industry where their jobs are on the line. Go talk to an auto or steel worker. Tell them not to take it personally. Let's see how that goes for ya.

 

[Maxman1]

I don't think the issue with CAF pay is so much pay vs general inflation but rather pay vs housing inflation.

We've been in a period of extensive and extended inflation of home values. It makes home ownership extremely difficult for the younger generations because the cost of entry to the market is so high. The situation is amplified for CAF members because even if you're able to enter the housing market you are unable to lock in that investment because you may/will likely be forced to move at a time of the CAF's choosing rather than when it makes economic sense for you personally.

In my opinion if you solve the housing crisis for the younger generation then you solve one of the biggest economic issues facing the country and perhaps the greatest source of personal dissatisfaction among young people. This goes double for members of the CAF.

Maybe adopting a US-style of housing, where a barracks room or family unit is provided at no charge, according to living situation, and a rent subsidy is provided to those choosing to live off base, would solve this.

Earning $72,000 a year and not pay rent would be a major attraction. And supposedly, NATO allows that to be counted towards defense spending.

Well, if we focused on parts of inner Detroit I'm not sure if anyone would notice.

Of course, if we were to nuke Kansas, the world may not notice for... years.

Interestingly, I am reading that the federal liberals are seriously looking into both of the European 6th Gen fighter programs (with the British one being favored), would be a smart buy in for industry if we can get on as a partner with the Brits, Italians, and Japanese.

Yes, I'm sure that will be very nice when it's ready in 20-30 years from now. Meanwhile, our CF-18s are going to start falling out of the sky within the next decade.

 

[YZT580]

Is

We’ve had the CAF and RCMP get benefits that others haven’t gotten before. Why would they have any say? And when have they ever complained?

To be honest the only complaints I hear are from the CAF when the PS gets something they don’t.

From what I understand, rent for housing is more in Victoria than it is in Cold Lake partially because civilian rents are higher as well and there was a need to placate the civil service with regards to the housing benefit that those in uniform were receiving. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

 

[childs56]

There's a weird idea that if we bend over harder, they'll yield. Yet, Carney actually taking a hardline last week actually got a bit more respect from Trump.

End of the day, the only way to build leverage is to have something they want. Saying you'll go from 90% of your procurement dollars going to the US to 95% isn't going to help. Saying you'll go from 90% to 70% will get their attention.

We have lots of raw resources they not only want but the need. We also have lots in the Tech sector they want and need, surprisingly have failed to attract over the past number of years to go south of the border.

 

[YZT580]

too true.

This is a feature. Not a bug. A number of NATO militaries have reduced, eliminated or severely restricted pensions. The idea being to front load earnings to make enlistment more attractive.

I think if we surveyed members the result would largely favour more dollars now. Not a pension boost.

The only ones who truly appreciate the topped up pension are those like me who are collecting it. For the rest it is too far in the future to worry over

 

[QV]

it isn't about taking it personally, its about a clear and real threat to our economy and our nation, yes the US has done it across the board but the answer isn't sucking up to them, and never will be.

No it's not. But neither is pissing in the wind.

 

[McG]

Depot level and engineering support more civilianized than today.

That is not second line. Second line is part of and moves with the formation. When you propose civilization of second line, you are proposing civilization of people who need to be warfighters in the land environment.

It is also a term that comes from the land environment: TERMIUM Plus®

Don’t civilianize this.

The fact that people making 72k a year are couch surfing tells me that financial literacy is an issue in this country. That isn’t really a CAF problem as it is an education problem.

It is a CAF problem if poor financial literacy degrades readiness. But the institution knows this and there are support services and education available to ameliorate. More supports would not be a bad thing.

 

[Remius]

Is

From what I understand, rent for housing is more in Victoria than it is in Cold Lake partially because civilian rents are higher as well and there was a need to placate the civil service with regards to the housing benefit that those in uniform were receiving. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

News to me. Never heard that that was the reason. All I know is that rates are set to not compete with market rates. That has nothing to do with the PS. I’ve never heard anything related to any PS union complaining that CAF members were getting a housing benefit that they were not. PS employees pay market rates for housing just like everyone else.

 

[HavokFour]

Another relevant project we might want to consider joining, or at least show some interest in.

BREAKING: Norway, Ukraine in Talks to Co-Produce New Air Defense Missile
Alt: https://archive.ph/Jd5lU

 

[Underway]

too true.

The only ones who truly appreciate the topped up pension are those like me who are collecting it. For the rest it is too far in the future to worry over

As long as they don't change it for everyone who's vested at this point. I'm to far into my retirement planning to have it all change suddenly!