I'll believe it when I see it.
Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending
- Thread starter Maxman1
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The GAU-21 is a beast! I’ve seen it fired at the GDAS Ethan Allen range…it’s like a mini-A10.
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It would be genuinely nice. Where does the CA get the ammo?
GR66
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PrairieFella
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Has leveraging academia ever been considered for the technical trades? I was just at Red River College where a buddy is a mechanic professor (or whatever they're referred to as haha) and the shops they have there put the largest shops the CAF has to shame. I imagine every province has an institution or two just as impressive. Contracting out the initial QL phases of our Veh Techs which are covering tools, safety and normal vehicles anyways (correct me if I'm wrong on that) frees up a lot of tech instructors for green fleet maintenance and courses.
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DP1 is not only trades training, it's inculcation into the military. Outsourced training is possible, but has to be deliberately planned and delivered, and does not relieve the personnel support burden as much as one might think.
PrairieFella
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Fair enough, but I'm wondering if it could be optimized by contracting instruction to schools in vicinity of established bases. Take my red river college example, it's roughly a 15 minute drive from 17 Wing.
Troops could theoretically be quartered in the shacks on base there, conduct morning PT as a course, do inspection, have breakfast on base, head down to the college by bus for instruction, have box lunches brought to them by the storesman, more instruction and then bus back to base for night routine, etc. Any field phase on Veh Tech DP1 if it exists could take place at the St Charles Ranges (10 mins from base) or Shilo (2.25 hours from base).
Perhaps not ideal but if it allows an extra serial or two per div a year for a very red trade, maybe something along those lines could be valuable. That said, just spitballing here and I'm hoping any veh tech will tell me it's a stupid idea if it is haha.
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The GlobalEye is great for Europe where there's always an airfield 15 mins away. In Canada, even in the Arctic, you're creating a notable logistics burden by not having AAR. They means more fuel caching at more locations. If it can be avoided it should be.
In my books, AAR should be a mandatory requirement. But we'll see what the Air Requirements folks put out. Should be noted that a Global with conformal radars can be designed with AAR capabilities. This was offered for the NATO AEW competition:
L3Harris and ELTA Systems Expanding Partnership for Airborne Early Warning and Control Solutions
L3Harris Technologies and Israel Aerospace Industries’ ELTA Systems Group (ELTA) are expanding their teaming agreement to provide leading-edge, U.S. and NATO interoperable Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) solutions based on ELTA’s proven Conformal AEW, installed on a high-performance...www.l3harris.com
I think the zeitgeist is moving in the other direction. More local infrastructure. More airfields. More runways compatible with Bombardier Global 6000/6500 aircraft. An aircraft that is both Canadian and, given its small passenger load (16-17), in keeping with northern passenger transportation requirements.
The surest way to stake a claim to the north is to increase the accessibility by building more airfields, ports and roads that are have both civil and military use.
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Related is the Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement project - essentially the Bv206 replacement project. There is now a Quebec contender in the mix making what is essentially a Canadian version of the BAE Hagglunds BvS10.
And I missed this bit but according to this video Carney is promising to use some of that steel that he said we don't need to build some 400 new LAV IIIs (not LAV 6s those are mentioned separately in association with the Indirect Fires Modernization mortars). The LAV IIIs are to be built with European turrets with Oerlikon KBA (apparently a 25mm cannon?) Oerlikon is Rheinmetall and Rheinmetall is Quebec.
If they are doing that I hope they have got the press release wrong and are looking at something more like the Skyranger 30.
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If Canada is going to do this then it needs to learn new lessons from the Ross rifle and commit to the projects. We chucked the Ross and adopted the SMLE because it was the easy thing to do.
The Brits developed the SA80 and it sucked but they persevered and eventually produced a workable weapon (SA80, A1, A2, A3)
The Yanks developed the M16 and over the years changed the ammunition, the twist in the barrels, the shot selection, the furniture, the action.... the attachments, the attachment system and a whole host of continuing modifications. Carbines, heavy barrels, DMRs ....
The issue will be working with industry to ensure that they deliver the stuff that works for you.
Contracts similar to those between Ukraine and Roshel seem to work. 1700 Senators have been delivered to Ukraine since February 2022 as of March 2025 starting from an initial contract of 200 civilian armoured cars. The design has been modified numerous times to meet the demands of the conflict.
When I became a Construction Tech in 2001. CFSME had contracted out to NSCC to teach various portions or even complete courses for Plumbing Heating, Construction Tech, RM, WFE, and possibly Electrical. We had both Reg and Res on course and course WO and Clerks were RCAF Res force. A Standards WO should have also been tasked to this group. Civilian Instructors taught the CF course as well added their professional experience to improve skil sets. We were housed at CFB Shearwater and used most of those facilities. This program lasted for around 3yrs. QL 5 was taught at CFSME.
This could work for some trades within CF.
I think it was used in the 50’s where they brought in Academics to teach instructors and various schools within RCAF as technologies were changing quickly.
KevinB
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It still sucks.
Notice anyone that can in the Uk uses something else.
There is a lesson to be learned, at some point stop throwing good money after bad, as it is then all wasted.
The bold part above is the key aspect.
Stop trying to push that boulder up a hill.
KevinB
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The other question that I would ask is, can serials be staggered that CAF Instructors can service more than one serial.
PT is easy as you don’t need an entire staff to run it for most days
Morning - Serial 1 does Mil Skills
- Serial 2 does CIV classroom
Lunch -
Afternoon - Serial 2 does Mil Skills
- Serial 1 does CIV classroom
Etc.
GR66
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Do you have any other reference to the 400 x LAV III's?
The only thing I can find is that Unifor is lobbying the Government to commit to 400 x LAVs over 10 years as a minimum requirement to keep the doors open. No mention of an actual order or specific details on what type of LAV.
General Dynamics to Ottawa: We need more military orders or risk layoffs
London’s military armoured vehicle maker is lobbying the federal government for orders, citing layoffs without new work.
lfpress.com
And recently Unifor expressed disappointment that Carney made no mention of ordering additional LAVs in the Liberal defence policy.
‘We need it now’: Unifor disappointed no mention of LAVs in Carney military pledge
Liberal leader Mark Carney pledged to beef up military spending on Tuesday - it’s what he didn’t say that had some in London expressing disappointment.
www.ctvnews.ca
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Fine. Note that it is still the issue weapon. And that it is still using that ammunition that you lot forced on NATO.
At which point was it appropriate to stop throwing money at the Armalite family?
It absolutely is.
Mate, your entire system is based on pushing boulders up hills. That is what is known as work.
Stop flogging your kit and then moaning that we are not doing enough to help ourselves. Or do you just want to harvest our taxes?
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Nothing other than the video. I was hoping somebody might be able to confirm it for me.
The only thing I can find is that Unifor is lobbying the Government to commit to 400 x LAVs over 10 years as a minimum requirement to keep the doors open. No mention of an actual order or specific details on what type of LAV.
General Dynamics to Ottawa: We need more military orders or risk layoffs
London’s military armoured vehicle maker is lobbying the federal government for orders, citing layoffs without new work.
And recently Unifor expressed disappointment that Carney made no mention of ordering additional LAVs in the Liberal defence policy.
‘We need it now’: Unifor disappointed no mention of LAVs in Carney military pledge
Liberal leader Mark Carney pledged to beef up military spending on Tuesday - it’s what he didn’t say that had some in London expressing disappointment.
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WRT the missiles, I agree with your point completely. My concern is shared. Will we be allowed to build missiles of our own? Either American, European or Korean?
I would like to see us building "all of the above" but I am not convinced our southern neighbours want to see us well-armed and capable of independent joint action.
KevinB
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Technically the US forces NATO into 7.62mm NATO, then 20 years later tried to get NATO to switch again to 5.56mm with the US M193 55gr load.
NATO forced the US to change its 5.56mm M193 55gr load to the Belgian SS109 62.9gr load as a compromise.
Armalite hasn’t been a thing for years, Colt bought Gene Stoner’s patent and Aramlite was left with working on piston guns (which the AR-18 has system spawned the G-36, Hk416, SA-80…).
Enfield botched the SA-80 so badly that Hk couldn’t really fix it, and the UK had to adopt two different pressure 5.56mm loadings - one for the SA-80 series and one for the C-8 series and now the KAC guns.
If you are the only one in step, odds are it’s just you that is actually out of step.
Work smarter not harder, the key is to find the most effective and efficient means available.
I have zero ties to the USG. So your guess is a good as mine.
GR66
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I don't think that the US would complain about one of their major defence contractors (Raytheon) getting billions of dollars of new work and someone else paying for munitions that the US/NATO might need in a conflict. And likely the most important part is that you're expanding the high-tech workforce in Canada. These are the bright minds that in time potentially could use the expertise they've gained working for established companies to create a Canadian start-up to produce truly Canadian defence products.
FJAG
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The idea of partnering with Community colleges to run serials of their standard tech courses is so obvious and useful it boggles the mind that we haven't jumped into it with both feet.
The concept could be like a military college but better. Recruit individuals for an X years contract. Have them:
1) do their basic course during the summer after high school and before community college and weed out the incapable. Do this at an armory in their home city during the day and living at home at night (except for a short field exercise). Full pay and benefits;
2) Pay their tuition and let them live at home with their families during the civilian fall/winter and spring semesters and with no pay. Have them parade with a unit one weekend per month with full pay and benefits - but time spent counts towards military service.;
3) During summer breaks have them take military courses for four months at a base which are designed to convert the already learned civilian training into specific military skills (e.g civilian diesel mechanic to servicing military LAVs and tanks). Full pay and benefits.
4) On graduation obligatory service for X years with RegF or Y years with ResF (or combo). One could even offer one year Class B contracts if there is a need to surge specific tech trades at that time.
Individual ends up with both a civilian ticket and a DP 1 qualification.
For example the Fanshawe College Motive Power Technician (Diesel) Program is a two year course of study conducted over 60 weeks and the tuition costs for a Canadian is currently $7,000. (I expect a host of other student related fees but I think one can safely say under $10,000 all told for two years.) That's dirt cheap when you consider running such a program in house on a base with military instructors.
Inculcation is easily done during the summer sessions. You'd have three of those - a basic recruit program at a local location before CC (probably two months if after high school) , a military course the summer between the two annual sessions (around three - four months); and a third session during the summer immediately after completing the course and before the individual joins a unit at the end of August (again around three - four months as required by occupation).
MilEME09
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We are in the process of signing memorandums with several tech schools to outsource vehicle tech training. 3 div is working with NAIT and olds college to create the partnership. I haven't seen details yet on how that will launch but its moving ahead full steam.
I think it's a done deal: Global Eye (or some other Global 6000/6500 based platform). This following article on the Liberal spending platform specifically references a “Canadian-made airborne early warning and control aircraft”.The GlobalEye is great for Europe where there's always an airfield 15 mins away. In Canada, even in the Arctic, you're creating a notable logistics burden by not having AAR. They means more fuel caching at more locations. If it can be avoided it should be.
In my books, AAR should be a mandatory requirement. But we'll see what the Air Requirements folks put out. Should be noted that a Global with conformal radars can be designed with AAR capabilities. This was offered for the NATO AEW competition:
L3Harris and ELTA Systems Expanding Partnership for Airborne Early Warning and Control Solutions
L3Harris Technologies and Israel Aerospace Industries’ ELTA Systems Group (ELTA) are expanding their teaming agreement to provide leading-edge, U.S. and NATO interoperable Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) solutions based on ELTA’s proven Conformal AEW, installed on a high-performance...
Carney platform promises $130B in new spending, deficits until 2029
Mark Carney’s plan for Canada includes $130 billion in new spending which will see the country run deficits until at least the fiscal year 2028-2029.
www.ctvnews.ca
Maxman1
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The M16 is the only one of those three that was actually good from the start, only hampered by the wrong powder being used and no cleaning kit being issued (Eugene Stoner was shocked by that and had just assumed the Army would supply one), with minor incremental improvements being made along the way.
The Ross rifle was a good hunting rifle but a poor military rifle that was chosen purely because it wasn't the Lee Enfield, because the MND at the time was anti-British. The SA80 had to be reworked twice to make it reliably functional.
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