Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Before we can figure out what the military needs, there has to be a clear, everyone-on-board vision on what it's supposed to do.

Anyone have a decent summary of any recent government that's come up with such a thing?

And how many such documents have been generated only to become dust collectors when the "new & improved" team comes in?

Yeah, weak DefMins play a role, but usually as part of an overall weak process of defining Canada's goals in a clear, concise and agreed-to way.

 

[Quirky]

Before we can figure out what the military needs, there has to be a clear, everyone-on-board vision on what it's supposed to do.

Whoa whoa whoa, lets not put the cart before the horse, that type of talk will get you elected into parliament.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Whoa whoa whoa, lets not put the cart before the horse, that type of talk will get you elected into parliament.

I know, dare to dream, right?

 

[FSTO]

This.

When I was a youngster at least Lester B Pearson - the PM at the time - at one time was in the military - in WWI as medical orderly then joined the Royal Flying Corps. As far as I can tell very few other politicians in Canada had military or defense experience.

As to your second statement I think you hit the nail on the head.

Dief had some military experience as well. But it was Louis St Laurent who led a government that had both a coherent and useful foreign and defence policy (although they let the RCAF run wild with the Arrow) which suited our place in the world order at the time. The 60's was the transition to fairy dust land. Rising costs of military equipment coupled with a desire to have a world class social safety net begat the likes of Hellyer and Trudeau (Pere) who promised everything and delivered nothing (defence) or increasingly unsustainable (our social safety net). Everyone since has been found wanting and the quality of political leadership is being ever more and more diluted.

 

[FSTO]

Before we can figure out what the military needs, there has to be a clear, everyone-on-board vision on what it's supposed to do.

Anyone have a decent summary of any recent government that's come up with such a thing?

And how many such documents have been generated only to become dust collectors when the "new & improved" team comes in?

Yeah, weak DefMins play a role, but usually as part of an overall weak process of defining Canada's goals in a clear, concise and agreed-to way.

Canadian Prime Ministers and their governments have been able to maintain their saltwater real world blindness because they are secure in the knowledge that the Americans will ultimately do what is necessary for the protection of North America. The knowledge that the Americans have had the world's most sophisticated and powerful submarine military forces since the end of the Second World War has protected Canadian leaders from having to make serious decisions about the protection of Canada's undersea maritime regions territories and national interests. This willful neglect is further facilitated by the lack of any meaningful political constituency within Canada that would compel Canadian political leaders to understand the need for the protection of Canada's maritime regions Canada.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hellyer

Careful say that name 3 times and he will reappear with aliens.

 

[FSTO]

Anyone worried that the ongoing water crisis in the US SW will have very powerful people in the US casting envious eyes towards all that fresh water being "wasted" going into Hudson's Bay and the Beaufort Sea? Plus the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer is another concern as well.

The Current State of the Ogallala Aquifer

The Ogallala Aquifer provides water to many in the High Plains Region, but it's rapidly decreasing water levels have many worried about the future.

www.talonlpe.com

Is anyone at Minister Joly's office thinking of this?


Of course not, they are too busy being keyboard toughies to the Russians. We are fubard!

 

[GK .Dundas]

Anyone worried that the ongoing water crisis in the US SW will have very powerful people in the US casting envious eyes towards all that fresh water being "wasted" going into Hudson's Bay and the Beaufort Sea? Plus the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer is another concern as well.

The Current State of the Ogallala Aquifer

The Ogallala Aquifer provides water to many in the High Plains Region, but it's rapidly decreasing water levels have many worried about the future.

www.talonlpe.com

Is anyone at Minister Joly's office thinking of this?


Of course not, they are too busy being keyboard toughies to the Russians. We are fubard!

I suspect that the Minister's office assumes that the Americans will protect us from any aggressor up to and including themselves.
Canadian political logic ....

 

[ueo]

Anyone worried that the ongoing water crisis in the US SW will have very powerful people in the US casting envious eyes towards all that fresh water being "wasted" going into Hudson's Bay and the Beaufort Sea? Plus the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer is another concern as well.

The Current State of the Ogallala Aquifer

The Ogallala Aquifer provides water to many in the High Plains Region, but it's rapidly decreasing water levels have many worried about the future.

www.talonlpe.com

Is anyone at Minister Joly's office thinking of this?


Of course not, they are too busy being keyboard toughies to the Russians. We are fubard!

Is anyone in her office thinking?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Is anyone in her office thinking?

Yes , not particularly well but they are thinking.
After all this is Canada and everybody loves Canada .
Thus relieving us of having to deal with such unpleasantness as conflicts.

 

[McG]

Not true. The last CPC did more for the CAF than any other in my many decades here.

They did what they had to do to get us through Kandahar (and that spending trend actually started under Martin) and, as soon as they announced CAF was leaving the province, they dialed CAF right back to the level of investment as where they had inherited it. Don’t give too much credit there.

Election Issues 2015: A Maclean's primer on defence spending - Macleans.ca

Maclean's is your destination for the 2015 election. Start with our in-depth primers on the big issues, including defence spending

www.macleans.ca

 

[dapaterson]

Keep in mind also that delivery date is a poor metric. The MSVS project, fir example, delivered over more than a decade, with planning and procurement beginning well before that.

 

[McG]

It was under a Liberal government that the first contracts were signed for M777 and RG-31 that arrived for the first mechanized Canadian battlegroup to go into Kandahar.

 

[FJAG]

It was under a Liberal government that the first contracts were signed for M777 and RG-31 that arrived for the first mechanized Canadian battlegroup to go into Kandahar.

While correct vis a vis the M777, do not forget that it was under the Liberal government that the main artillery capability (the M109) was shelved and planned for divestment without there being any plan or funding in place for its replacement. Essentially under the Liberals the Army's plan was to leave its indirect fire support capability in the form of 81mm mortars and LG1 and C3 105mm howitzers. The M777 was acquired in very limited numbers pursuant to an Unforecasted Operational Requirement - essentially Canada had no plan and was pushed into it by circumstances of committing it's troops to a potential combat situation. This is not the way to run an Army regardless of political party.

 

[FJAG]

Anyone worried that the ongoing water crisis in the US SW will have very powerful people in the US casting envious eyes towards all that fresh water being "wasted" going into Hudson's Bay and the Beaufort Sea? Plus the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer is another concern as well.

The Current State of the Ogallala Aquifer

The Ogallala Aquifer provides water to many in the High Plains Region, but it's rapidly decreasing water levels have many worried about the future.

www.talonlpe.com

Is anyone at Minister Joly's office thinking of this?


Of course not, they are too busy being keyboard toughies to the Russians. We are fubard!

One doesn't even need to look at it from a threat point of view. It should be looked at as an economic opportunity. Some of our northern water resources are not only viable sources of long-term cheap and ecologically sound hydro electric energy but also a supply of fresh water that is largely going to waste. 2,300 years ago the Romans spanned much of Europe (same, same the Incas) with basic aqueduct systems to supply cities and farms. Where is our initiative?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The problem has and always been the fraudulent belief we can ramp up our capabilities at the drop of a hat, or failing that, someone else (Brits or Americans) will come to save the day.

Ofcourse when push comes to shove, if we don't have the capabilities; or more importantly, the will to defend our territory, we will be subjugated either implicitly or subliminally by the 8nvading force or those who spilt the blood and treasure we chose not to.

I personally would rather defend the country on our own than wait for someone else (friend or foe) to set the terms

 

[FSTO]

One doesn't even need to look at it from a threat point of view. It should be looked at as an economic opportunity. Some of our northern water resources are not only viable sources of long-term cheap and ecologically sound hydro electric energy but also a supply of fresh water that is largely going to waste. 2,300 years ago the Romans spanned much of Europe (same, same the Incas) with basic aqueduct systems to supply cities and farms. Where is our initiative?

Hmmm, why should we encourage the living in unsustainable in inhospitable regions. The ability to move water and introduction of A/C to the desert allowed the cities of Vegas, Phoenix, and LA to flourish. Why should we reward bad behavior by draining rivers and aquafers?

It's this sort of thinking that got us in this pickle in the first place.

 

[Czech_pivo]

This is what happens when the left put in diversity, gender and race requirements on job applications.

CAF has prioritized recruiting in these three areas to great failure.

Anyone worried that the ongoing water crisis in the US SW will have very powerful people in the US casting envious eyes towards all that fresh water being "wasted" going into Hudson's Bay and the Beaufort Sea? Plus the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer is another concern as well.

The Current State of the Ogallala Aquifer

The Ogallala Aquifer provides water to many in the High Plains Region, but it's rapidly decreasing water levels have many worried about the future.

www.talonlpe.com

Is anyone at Minister Joly's office thinking of this?


Of course not, they are too busy being keyboard toughies to the Russians. We are fubard!

I can guarantee you that no one in her office or pretty much any other Federal Office is thinking of this. Only those on the IJC will be thinking of this and there are no 'heavy hitters' on the IJC today.

 

[The Bread Guy]

They did what they had to do to get us through Kandahar (and that spending trend actually started under Martin) and, as soon as they announced CAF was leaving the province, they dialed CAF right back to the level of investment as where they had inherited it. Don’t give too much credit there.
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Election Issues 2015: A Maclean's primer on defence spending - Macleans.ca

Maclean's is your destination for the 2015 election. Start with our in-depth primers on the big issues, including defence spending

www.macleans.ca

So, like VAC pensions, all teams had a chance at bat and didn't do as well as they could have

 

[FJAG]

Hmmm, why should we encourage the living in unsustainable in inhospitable regions. The ability to move water and introduction of A/C to the desert allowed the cities of Vegas, Phoenix, and LA to flourish. Why should we reward bad behavior by draining rivers and aquafers?

It's this sort of thinking that got us in this pickle in the first place.

Well ... there's financial gain for one.

But, the Earth has limited areas where agriculture can happen naturally without any assistance and our population has, to a large extent, outstripped that. There are still massive regions of arable land where, with a bit of a boost, you can produce crops (which coincidentally create oxygen and burn up carbon dioxide) Moving fresh water to those regions when all it would otherwise do is flow to the sea and turn into salty water is a win-win situation. The same for many fertilizer products which can be produced by mining rather than gas conversion.

I don't think that the people who started up Vegas, Phoenix or even LA ever really envisioned the extent to which these centres would grow. Each has a very different origin and reason why it grew into what it is. The problem (feature?) about humans is that we tend to operate in an unstructured manner. You can only plan for so much. All too often serendipity plays a role. Then you react the best way that you can.