Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[KevinB]

In his defence he honestly believes that.

He thinks our Convening and giving Canada'sstamp of approval on international undertakings is enough. Plus there is that smug Canadian altitude that they need Canadian approval.

Plus there is a Canadian feeling that we don't have to do the dirty work. We let the Americans do it and besides the Americans want to do it too is the altitude. And then as a Canadian we get feel superior when things go wrong for the US. And we sew a maple leaf on the backpack and Europeans love us.

50 years of history classes at high school teaching Canadians are peacekeepers. This the result.

I don’t think he believes it at all. I just don’t think he cares.
He knows that we (America) won’t kick him to the curb outright. We will put the screws to him on certain items, hence the F-35, and P-8 as well as NORAD OTHR acquisitions that are proceeding at a glacial pace.
But other than that, we can’t afford to kick you out of NORAD, and will exert pressure along with Allies to try to shame y’all into meeting the commitments, but that’s it.
This also allows us to make certain decisions without consulting Canada wrt Canadian sovereignty.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don’t think he believes it at all. I just don’t think he cares.
He knows that we (America) won’t kick him to the curb outright. We will put the screws to him on certain items, hence the F-35, and P-8 as well as NORAD OTHR acquisitions that are proceeding at a glacial pace.
But other than that, we can’t afford to kick you out of NORAD, and will exert pressure along with Allies to try to shame y’all into meeting the commitments, but that’s it.
This also allows us to make certain decisions without consulting Canada wrt Canadian sovereignty.

It might help if you did kick us to the curb... Sometimes a tough loss is the best professor.

 

[KevinB]

It might help if you did kick us to the curb... Sometimes a tough loss is the best professor.

True, but this way Canada remains a minor partner, that we can ignore when we chose.

So from an American standpoint, the current CAF works fine for us. That should bother Canadians, but it doesn’t as the majority prefer to have healthcare etc and moan on the sidelines.

Like an adult with a much younger sibling who’s still in diapers.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

This is where we need GO/FOs to start speaking out publicly. They need to be part lobbyist. And they need to put the institution first.

Look what happened to the last Admiral who tried that. The Emperor may have no clothes, but he likes to smash down underlings that make him look bad, regardless of how much it costs the taxpayer in the end.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Well, JT has charisma. I’ll give him that.

Jimmy Jones had charisma and his followers loved him for it, right to the end.

 

[dimsum]

if he actually fixes procurement and spends the needed dinero.

I'm not holding my breath on that.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm not holding my breath on that.

Is anyone?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Look what happened to the last Admiral who tried that. The Emperor may have no clothes, but he likes to smash down underlings that make him look bad, regardless of how much it costs the taxpayer in the end.

I assume your talking about VAdm Norman ?

And that's ok, at that level they should be ok with sacrificing their career aspirations for the betterment of the institution and its people. They expect us below them to do it, put the institution first I mean. Well, lead by example.

 

[FSTO]

I assume your talking about VAdm Norman ?

And that's ok, at that level they should be ok with sacrificing their career aspirations for the betterment of the institution and its people. They expect us below them to do it, put the institution first I mean. Well, lead by example.

I dont think the Admiral is lining up at the soup kitchen.
Of all the stupid things the Trudeau regime has done, the Norman Affair was by far the dumbest.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I dont think the Admiral is lining up at the soup kitchen.
Of all the stupid things the Trudeau regime has done, the Norman Affair was by far the dumbest.

That's the whole point of:

And that's ok, at that level they should be ok with sacrificing their career aspirations for the betterment of the institution and its people.

I don't think he is either, and his stick to his guns attitude is still talked about with reverence. His sacrifice is appreciated.

 

[Lumber]

I assume your talking about VAdm Norman ?

And that's ok, at that level they should be ok with sacrificing their career aspirations for the betterment of the institution and its people. They expect us below them to do it, put the institution first I mean. Well, lead by example.

Considering the lack of faith you've expressed in the benevolence of our political class, I'm surprised you're expressing such faith in CAF senior leadership. Once you get to that level, they aren't entirely dissimilar.

Not every GOFO either wants or expects to even be considered for L1/L0 positions. So what do they care about? Two things:
1. potential civilian careers post-military; and
2. their legacy, both from an external reputation perspective and an internal self-reflective perspective.

For the first one, they aren't going to rock the boat so much that no one in industry/government wants to hire them. For the second one, this is where you get decisions to do things like maintain or even increase the ops tempo. An admiral about to retire doesn't care that he's causing 5-10 year ripple effect because a ship that shouldn't have been sailing did an extra 6 months at sea; as far as they are concerned, they can look back at they careers proudly and say (to themselves) "While I was in charge, we had 4 CPFs on overseas deployment at once! huh huh huh, I'm the best!".

 

[Good2Golf]

I dont think the Admiral is lining up at the soup kitchen.
Of all the stupid things the Trudeau regime has done, the Norman Affair was by far the dumbest.

Trudeau Government circa 2015-2019 to Trudeau Government circa 2023: Hold my beer.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Considering the lack of faith you've expressed in the benevolence of our political class, I'm surprised you're expressing such faith in CAF senior leadership. Once you get to that level, they aren't entirely dissimilar.

Not every GOFO either wants or expects to even be considered for L1/L0 positions. So what do they care about? Two things:
1. potential civilian careers post-military; and
2. their legacy, both from an external reputation perspective and an internal self-reflective perspective.

For the first one, they aren't going to rock the boat so much that no one in industry/government wants to hire them. For the second one, this is where you get decisions to do things like maintain or even increase the ops tempo. An admiral about to retire doesn't care that he's causing 5-10 year ripple effect because a ship that shouldn't have been sailing did an extra 6 months at sea; as far as they are concerned, they can look back at they careers proudly and say (to themselves) "While I was in charge, we had 4 CPFs on overseas deployment at once! huh huh huh, I'm the best!".

The word should in my sentence is the key.

 

[KevinB]

Considering the lack of faith you've expressed in the benevolence of our political class, I'm surprised you're expressing such faith in CAF senior leadership. Once you get to that level, they aren't entirely dissimilar.

Not every GOFO either wants or expects to even be considered for L1/L0 positions. So what do they care about? Two things:
1. potential civilian careers post-military; and
2. their legacy, both from an external reputation perspective and an internal self-reflective perspective.

For the first one, they aren't going to rock the boat so much that no one in industry/government wants to hire them. For the second one, this is where you get decisions to do things like maintain or even increase the ops tempo. An admiral about to retire doesn't care that he's causing 5-10 year ripple effect because a ship that shouldn't have been sailing did an extra 6 months at sea; as far as they are concerned, they can look back at they careers proudly and say (to themselves) "While I was in charge, we had 4 CPFs on overseas deployment at once! huh huh huh, I'm the best!".

I’d argue there is more too it than that.

Often there is also the situation that the GO/FO considers falling on their sword, but understands that dying on one hill won’t change anything, except remove them from the ability to make as many positive impacts as they can at lower levels.

I know some fantastic senior officers and a few GO/FO who would die on that hill in a heartbeat IF they thought it would actually make a difference.

Sadly unless the entire CAF was to resign/release enmasse (without anyone organizing it collectively) I don’t think the GoC or the Cdn public would notice or care.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just a reminder about how much more money we're talking here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534916447402700801

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just a reminder about how much more money we're talking here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534916447402700801

Its basically like home ownership.

You either pay in small bites to maintain, fix and renovate over time, or you do nothing and then you're stuck with a huge bill and piles of problems at the end.

We're at the latter point for the CAF.

 

[Booter]

Just a reminder about how much more money we're talking here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534916447402700801

I’ve said it before here so I won’t beat a dead horse- longer than this post,

But there isn’t even really a pipeline to spend the money- if you buy “stuff” without people to use the stuff it’s not an intelligent use of the money. So I don’t believe the percentage is really a good basis for anything, it’s a good talking point- makes a nice clean number- but it doesn’t address the actual issues with procurement and troop development,

Which aren’t things that need blank cheques as much as the need for development and almost a complete rebuild of training capacity and force generation. A complete philosophical change.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This should really be in the Jokes and Other Humorous Stuff thread.

He won't do shit unless there's something in it for him.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’ve said it before here so I won’t beat a dead horse- longer than this post,

But there isn’t even really a pipeline to spend the money- if you buy “stuff” without people to use the stuff it’s not an intelligent use of the money. So I don’t believe the percentage is really a good basis for anything, it’s a good talking point- makes a nice clean number- but it doesn’t address the actual issues with procurement and troop development,

Which aren’t things that need blank cheques as much as the need for development and almost a complete rebuild of training capacity and force generation. A complete philosophical change.

You're right, except it didn't have to be this way. We havent maintained and renovated over time, instead we've kicked the can so far down the road the that were on a piled stone foundation, with knob and tube wiring and a tarpaper roof... Just using my own previous analogy.

 

[Booter]

You're right, except it didn't have to be this way. We havent maintained and renovated over time, instead we've kicked the can so far down the road the that were on a piled stone foundation, with knob and tube wiring and a tarpaper roof... Just using my own previous analogy.

100% but this is a country wide philosophy, if it’s not being used it’s probably not important. Look at provincial emergency management. Police. Health care.

Everyone is shocked that the system designed fifty years ago needs maintenance.

I may have this wrong- it wasn’t my area- does the forces not start trying to get people out or remustered the moment a trade is over it’s numbers?

That constant needles eye staffing wouldn’t support growth- creates a nonsensical training system that only runs courses every couple years- creates boom and bust trades…

In my experience with army reservists- they were obsessed with doing things so cheaply that they would rather maintain untrained soldiers untrained for longer than required rather than sending them to another area to do their training,

I’m way out of my depth here and my observations are dated- but it always seemed like we were happy to have a number on paper and attrition wasn’t really a concern.

So say we got the money- we don’t have the people trained to do things. A couple training missions around the globe. Logistics that are essentially assuming that we ll always be in a coalition so we can use their stuff.