Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[suffolkowner]

We could and probably should be able to do the same at least with some things. Look at the logistic trucks

LSVW
MSVW
MSVW-SMP
HSVW
ERC
various other niche vehicles

even leaving the LUVW replacement out of it that is a total of 4506 class 8 heavy trucks we have recently bought or ordered from 4 different manufacturers​

was trying to add a little table but unsuccessful


LSVS - 1022 - Zetros
MSVS - 1300 - Navistar
MSVSSMP - 1587 - Mack/Volvo
HSVS - 512 - Zetros
ERC - 85 - Rheinmetall

 

[Underway]

Every defence project in a democratic society has an element of pork barrelling to it; that doesn't mean it can't be a strategic project.

Canada thinks tactically. We need to replace 2,000 logistics vehicles; we give a contract to do that to some foreign country and a small maintenance side contract and we're done. We leave the IP and capability to manufacture elsewhere. Twenty years later we do it again - usually to a different foreigner. That's thinking tactically.

The US thinks strategically. They need an armoured fighting vehicle capability indefinitely; they build a system of plants capable of building AFVs, build a force of tanks and keep the plants going for ongoing factory level maintenance, product improvement, foreign military sales, combat and training loss replacement and a factory level capability to ramp up production in the event of a need for force expansion. That's thinking strategically.

Keeping Lima, and other facilities like it, open is one of the smarter things Congress has done. It's not just a scale of production thing. It's a mindset that favours short-term bean counting over a long-term industrial capability development strategy.

The US accidentally stumbles into competence all the time because of their military industrial complex and porkbarrelling. Then they call it strategic thinking like it was all part of the plan. Which it was not. Just like we did for Transmountain.

 

[FJAG]

I tend to think of army equipment in manufacturing classes that ought to be domestic:

a) Wheeled logistics vehicles including weapon launcher chassis

b) Tracked and wheeled light to medium armoured vehicles including APCs, ACSVs and IFVs including related RWS weapon systems

c) Heavy armoured vehicles including tanks and SP artillery including tube and launcher manufacture

d) Munitions - tube launched - from rifle to artillery

e) Munitions - soft launch - from UAV to missile and thermal and microwave

f) Miscellaneous explosives

g) electronics including communications and EW,

h) optics, and

i) personal clothing (including boots), load carrying and PPE

It's not exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination and there are undoubtably sub classes and sub suppliers involved - but its a start. I'm open as to whether these manufacturers are crown corporations or private Canadian corporations operating under crown contracts. I tend to favour the latter so long as contracts are long term ones scaled to provide continuous production facilities.

 

[Czech_pivo]

On another note. The more I think about France and how they've acted since the 1960's, the more I can appreciate/admire the path that they've taken.

They have in essence gone off on their own path, which pissed off the US, the UK, Germany, us and a few others. But at the end of the day they still have an independent nuclear arsenal, a moderately robust military, a stand alone military industry and has a large number of foreign buyers and they still don't give a f*ck what the US, the UK, Germany, us or the others think about them.

We certainly could have gone down a similar path, albeit with some slight alterations like NORAD, but for the most part we could have 'taken the road less travelled' (tip of the hat to Robert Frost) and been quite happy.

 

[FJAG]

The US accidentally stumbles into competence all the time because of their military industrial complex and porkbarrelling. Then they call it strategic thinking like it was all part of the plan. Which it was not. Just like we did for Transmountain.

Boy. I thought I was the guy that looked at everything with a cynical, glass half-full basis. I concede.

I kind of looked at this in the same way as when ADM(Mat) kept a regiment's worth of M109s in preservation for several years while the army staff at the time was yelling "Divest! Divest! It doesn't matter that we don't have a plan or money to replace them." Someone was thinking strategically while others were thinking tactically (and not even sound tactics at that).

 

[KevinB]

On another note. The more I think about France and how they've acted since the 1960's, the more I can appreciate/admire the path that they've taken.

They have in essence gone off on their own path, which pissed off the US, the UK, Germany, us and a few others. But at the end of the day they still have an independent nuclear arsenal, a moderately robust military, a stand alone military industry and has a large number of foreign buyers and they still don't give a f*ck what the US, the UK, Germany, us or the others think about them.

We certainly could have gone down a similar path, albeit with some slight alterations like NORAD, but for the most part we could have 'taken the road less travelled' (tip of the hat to Robert Frost) and been quite happy.

Not a country to emulate.

They have a much different culture due to their colonialist past. They are a highly interventionist nation when it comes to some of their former colonial holdings.

As well they are now being forced to enter into more collective programs as their domestic efforts on many fronts have either failed, or cost a lot for little return.

Yes they have an independent nuclear arsenal - so however does England, but the UK works with the US in a lot of areas to ensure a better bang for the buck, and also having a big younger brother who has a pretty serious left hook is never bad.

Like @FJAG I believe any nation should have a significant ability of domestic military production.

I think Canada often errs in not working with the US on programs - as while you cannot copy the US acquisition, some of the programs are no brainers that would have the CAF in much better shape for less money.

 

[MilEME09]

Boy. I thought I was the guy that looked at everything with a cynical, glass half-full basis. I concede.

I kind of looked at this in the same way as when ADM(Mat) kept a regiment's worth of M109s in preservation for several years while the army staff at the time was yelling "Divest! Divest! It doesn't matter that we don't have a plan or money to replace them." Someone was thinking strategically while others were thinking tactically (and not even sound tactics at that).

unfortunately we dont have a lot of that anymore, I see a bunch of options that also could boost the canadian economy.

Griffon replacement - Airbus helicopters - have them built at their fort Erie plant, The H225M is the latest in the super puma family and would suit our needs

Logistics trucks? ditch the MSVS Milcot, go with GD's LVM medium vehicle for more streamlined logistics and training

Subs? KASS-III

LRPF? - K239 - leveage trade agreements to get ammunition facility set up here

Milcot replacement? Senator Truck

 

[dapaterson]

LUVW milcot can be an unarmored pickup with a radio mount and blackout drive. No need for the expense of Senator remanufacturing of a pickup.

 

[calculus]

unfortunately we dont have a lot of that anymore, I see a bunch of options that also could boost the canadian economy.

Griffon replacement - Airbus helicopters - have them built at their fort Erie plant, The H225M is the latest in the super puma family and would suit our needs

Logistics trucks? ditch the MSVS Milcot, go with GD's LVM medium vehicle for more streamlined logistics and training

Subs? KASS-III

LRPF? - K239 - leveage trade agreements to get ammunition facility set up here

Milcot replacement? Senator Truck

I'd sub in the H175M in place of the H225M. It's closer in size to the Griffon (though still bigger), but also it uses Canadian engines (PT6C-67E).

H175M missions

The highly capable replacement for the medium-weight and super-medium-weight helicopter categories

www.airbus.com

 

[FJAG]

I think Canada often errs in not working with the US on programs - as while you cannot copy the US acquisition, some of the programs are no brainers that would have the CAF in much better shape for less money.

Kevin. Until last month I was in full agreement.

However, when you're the smaller partner in a bigger conglomerate then you better have trust in your bigger partner that at some point he won't pack up his IP or divert the critical parts supply coming from his subs to your plants or start raising the prices of parts or licenses unilaterally. Last month all that trust disappeared in a cloud of orange vented stupidity.

I went grocery shopping with 9D today. It took twice as long as usual because we were looking at labels to see the country of origin. US Brands that we've bought for decades are staying on the shelf.

I said it before: the two of us were two of the most solid fans of the US you could have up here. Not anymore. I don't think Americans truly understand what's going on here. Even worse, the vast majority of them couldn't give a rat's ass what we think up here.

I agree - we erred before. Sometimes stupidly so. From here on in it's more likely to be stubbornly so.

 

[suffolkowner]

I'd sub in the H175M in place of the H225M. It's closer in size to the Griffon (though still bigger), but also it uses Canadian engines (PT6C-67E).

H175M missions

The highly capable replacement for the medium-weight and super-medium-weight helicopter categories

www.airbus.com

hopefully this will be over by the time we replace the Griffon

 

[MilEME09]

hopefully this will be over by the time we replace the Griffon

probably not since the project has started, though its still early

 

[Good2Golf]

I'd sub in the H175M in place of the H225M. It's closer in size to the Griffon (though still bigger), but also it uses Canadian engines (PT6C-67E).

H175M missions

The highly capable replacement for the medium-weight and super-medium-weight helicopter categories

www.airbus.com

Why limit yourself to something as tiny as a Griffon.

Get into a proper UH weight class 10-12ton, like the UH-60 or H225M. And since America has decided to forego its relationships with…check current news feeds…everybody, let them close the shutters on their castle, and binge on the food and drink of their Republic, so…”Just say ‘no’ to the Black Hawk!”

Sorry America, you’re on you’re own…we sure are…so H225M/725 in a heartbeat. Swap out the Makila 2A engines for re-engineered P&WC PW127TS made in Longueuil, Qc. and we’re off to the races.

 

[suffolkowner]

Maybe Italy looking to gear up with easement on EU deficits

https://twitter.com/x/status/1890556530665091233

Whats possible

Italy pop 60 million GDP $2.4 Trillion
Canada pop 40 million GDP $2.3 Trillion

 

[MilEME09]

Why limit yourself to something as tiny as a Griffon.

Get into a proper UH weight class 10-12ton, like the UH-60 or H225M. And since America has decided to forego its relationships with…check current news feeds…everybody, let them close the shutters on their castle, and binge on the food and drink of their Republic, so…”Just say ‘no’ to the Black Hawk!”

Sorry America, you’re on you’re own…we sure are…so H225M/725 in a heartbeat. Swap out the Makila 2A engines for re-engineered P&WC PW127TS made in Longueuil, Qc. and we’re off to the races.

Exactly, if it works it works, the 225M also can mount rockets and ATGMs, giving us more flexibility

 

[OldSolduer]

Exactly, if it works it works, the 225M also can mount rockets and ATGMs, giving us more flexibility

Oh my are you saying we can have choppers that can actually fire things?? Oh we're just peacekeepers!!! (sarcasm intended)

 

[Maxman1]

How about AW101s be the all-solving hammer.

 

[MilEME09]

How about AW101s be the all-solving hammer.

No, Because the moment we all read that, we all heard Chrétien voice in our heads

 

[Colin Parkinson]

LUVW milcot can be an unarmored pickup with a radio mount and blackout drive. No need for the expense of Senator remanufacturing of a pickup.

But we need to support Canadian companies and not just GDLS. There are lots of roles where we need light armour. They make a better replacement for the G-Wagon than the TAPV, which can be rerolled as airfield defense for the F-35's and convoy escort.

 

[Maxman1]

No, Because the moment we all read that, we all heard Chrétien voice in our heads

But do you have proof? Is it proven?