Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Kirkhill]

Interesting UN summary of the situation as of 1961.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-210477/

In view of the fact that more than half of the territory of Palestine was allotted to the Jewish State, whereas the Jewish population of the country at that time was less than half of the Arab population,1 a very large Arab minority would have been included in the Jewish State under the Partition Plan. In fact, the Jewish element in the Jewish State would have amounted to approximately 498,000, whereas the Arab minority, consisting of sedentary and nomadic populations, would have totalled 497,000 persons. In the Arab State, the Jewish element would have amounted to 10,000, within a total population of 735,000.

In the land held by the nation of Israel, as of November 30, 1947 there were:

498,000 Jews in settlements
497,000 Arabs in settlements and living nomadic lives that didn't recognize borders

In the Trans-Jordan portion allotted to the Arabs by the UN there were:

725,000 Arabs
10,000 Jews

11. Following the adoption of the partition resolution by the General Assembly, immediate, widespread disturbances broke out in Palestine on an even larger scale than before. The situation which obtained throughout the area was described by the five-member Palestine Commission charged with the implementation of the Plan as follows: "The organized efforts of Arab elements to prevent the partition of Palestine; the determined efforts of Jews to ensure the establishment of the Jewish State as envisaged by the resolution; and the fact that the Mandatory Power, engaged in the liquidation of its administration and the evacuation of its troops, has found it impossible fully to contain the conflict, have led to virtual civil war in Palestine; to a steady deterioration in administration and security in the territory; and to the imminence of widespread chaos, starvation, strife and bloodshed …".

Congratulations to the UN. Nice first job. /sarcasm

B. Flight of the Arabs


12. By mid-May 1948, when the mandate came officially to an end and the State of Israel was proclaimed, the sporadic outbreaks of violence had developed into full-scale war, involving not only the Jews and Arabs of Palestine but also the neighbouring Arab countries. A number of atrocities were committed, further intensifying the fears which had been mounting for so long.


13. The Arabs of Palestine began leaving their homes even before the termination of the Mandate and taking refuge in the Arab countries. Some 30,000 of them were estimated to have left in the first few months after the adoption of the partition resolution.

30,000 Arabs leave immediately out of a total population of 1,222,000 while the Jews with a base of 508,000 were being supplemented by refugees from Europe.

As the day of the termination of the Mandate approached and it became evident that large-scale war could not be averted, the stream of Arab refugees swelled to a torrent. The massacre of the Arab population of the village of Deir Yasin by Jewish terrorists on 9 April added further impetus to the flight of the Arab refugees by providing all too tangible grounds for previously ill-defined fears. Some 200,000 had abandoned their homes by the middle of May.

By the day Israel was proclaimed the 1,222,000 Arbs hs shrunk to something like 1,000,000 with the remaining 200,000 or so had moved into neighbouring territories. Again a fair number of the Arabs were nomads, generally known as Bedu, who would have had no fixed abode anywhere let alone in the lands known as Israel, Palestine and Trans-Jordan.

The Jewish population was in excess of 500,000 and tied to specific settlements that had been purchased from local landholders prior to the League of Nations mandate in 1922. Some biblical titles, such as those in Hebron, were recognized by all sides. The local Jews often found themselves at odds with the European Jews and often more sympathetic to their Arab neighbours.

There were two truces recognized in 1948 - the first on June 11 and the second, July 19,

14. The United Nations Mediator, reporting to the General Assembly during the course of the second truce, stated that as a result of the conflict "almost the whole of the Arab population fled or was expelled from the area under Jewish occupation. This included the large Arab populations of Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Ramle and Lydda. Of a population of somewhat more than 400,000 Arabs prior to the outbreak of hostilities, the number presently estimated as remaining in Jewish-controlled territory is approximately 50,000. On the other hand, it is estimated that some 7,000 Jewish women and children from Jerusalem and various areas occupied by the Arabs sought refuge within Jewish-controlled territory".

Within the Israeli state borders proper, by July 19, 1948

498,000 Jews in settlements

497,000 Arabs, both settled and nomadic, had been reduced to 50,000.
An Arab outflow of 447,000
The Arabs fled the cities and found refuge in neighbouring lands.

15. A further and even greater number of Arabs fled their homes towards the end of 1948 when, in the course of the second truce, Israel forces occupied large areas both in the Negev and in Galilee which were predominantly inhabited by Arabs.

Open hostilities came to a formal end when armistice agreements were signed in 1949. By that time, the number of Arab refugees amounted to between 800,000 and 900,000.

1,222,000 Arabs in Mandatory Palestine in 1947
3-400,000 Arabs in Mandatory Palestine in 1949

Over 500,000 Jews

Israel was by then in occupation of various portions of the territory allotted to the Arab State by the Partition Plan, including Western Galilee, considerable sections of Samaria and Judaea, the towns of Lydda and Ramle with the surrounding area, and the major portion of the sub-districts of Gaza and Beersheba. In other words, as a result of the military operations Israel acquired approximately half of the territory allotted to the Arab State by the Partition Plan. Furthermore, the proposed international enclave of Jerusalem was de facto partitioned between the opposing forces, resulting in further displacement of large numbers of persons, principally Arabs.

 

[Kirkhill]

So, my question is, when the UN partitioned the land did it own the land it was partitioning? Did it have title? Did it even have recognized authority as the continuity ruler following on from the League of Nations Mandate and the preceding Ottoman empire?

.....

To be clear - Israel is Israeli and it deserves to exist as a homeland for the Jews.

But that homeland was not in the gift of the United Nations.

The UN created this mess.

 

[Jarnhamar]

“Reduce the Palestinian population in WB and Gaza”? That sounds pretty ethnically cleansey. We have various language for when a country expels an ethnic population from the lands it lives and was born and raised in. None of those terms are complimentary.

I think you're right about Israel wanting to get rid of Palestinians.

What's Israels options at this point though? Palestinians support a government that wants to eradicate jews and eliminate Israel.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think you're right about Israel wanting to get rid of Palestinians.

What's Israels options at this point though? Palestinians support a government that wants to eradicate jews and eliminate Israel.

I'm just spit balling here but likely next steps include Israel reconstructing the demolished areas of Gaza into 'engineered communities', sorting through the population to arrest and extract all traced Hamas members and remove them to prison, categorizing and placing the remaining civilians into new communities designed for maximum surveillance and control, and imposing a draconian system of military supervision and overwatch to help ensure Hamas can't make a big come back.

Concurrently, of course, they will play 'whack a mole' for a couple decades as Hamas tries to reassert control, in some way, from time to time.

And they'll ask Uncle Sam to pay for it all because they don't want the Israelis to do what makes the most sense: disperse the Gaza population into smaller, and geographically separated enclaves, around the country.

 

[Kilted]

I think realistically there is no peaceful option here. All Israel can do is to try and remove any power that Hamas has, and prevent them or anyone else from reclaiming it in the future. Which probably means we will end up in the same situation in a few years.

 

[KevinB]

March them over the border into Syria.

I was more thinking the other way. They seem to like the seas so much…

 

[ueo]

So, my question is, when the UN partitioned the land did it own the land it was partitioning? Did it have title? Did it even have recognized authority as the continuity ruler following on from the League of Nations Mandate and the preceding Ottoman empire?

.....

To be clear - Israel is Israeli and it deserves to exist as a homeland for the Jews.

But that homeland was not in the gift of the United Nations.

The UN created this mess.

Umm don't think so, just following GB, Fr and USA dictates.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was more thinking the other way. They seem to like the seas so much…

Buy a old cruise boat, with a crew of third world types. Load it with some of the more problematic Palestinians and have them sail it to Iran.

 

[KevinB]

Buy an old cruise boat, with a crew of third world types. Load it with some of the more problematic Palestinians and have them sail it to Iran.

Why is it you feel it needs an actual destination?

Honestly there is no good solution unless it it forces down on BOTH Israeli and Palestinian from a position of power and influence, that would also enforce its mandate with a firm, fair and friendly manner, yet also be able to flip the switch and be utterly savage in draconian enforcement when it needed to be.

Short of that we will need to let them kill themselves until both sides are sick and want to talk.

The best we as Westerners can do is ensure that Israeli reactions are taken with proportionality, and that Iran and other nations that would like the see Israel wiped out, aren’t able to extent any influence in the area.

Keep in mind that for years, no one wanted the Jews, and Israel was set up primarily due to Western Guilt after WW2, and had their own dirty war prior to the formation.

While I am on Israeli’s side mostly in this area, I’m not blind to see that they have a lot of skeletons too, and until their Government follows their own and international laws WRT settlements, that Hamas et al. will constrantly be able to recruit support and have some victim card to play. The moral high ground must be occupied by actions, just not words.

Or if the Israeli’s decide for a lasting victory that they must bury the Palestinian hearts and minds, and accept being an international pariah, then I’m at a loss, as we as a collective society are failing stopping Russian from doing that in Ukraine, and unlike Israel, Russia has no legitimate claims that their actions are defensive at all.

 

[Rifleman62]

Buy a old cruise boat, with a crew of third world types. Load it with some of the more problematic Palestinians and have them sail it to Iran.

Flag the vessel with an Israeli flag and sail within missile range of Yemen.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Why is it you feel it needs an actual destination?

Honestly there is no good solution unless it it forces down on BOTH Israeli and Palestinian from a position of power and influence, that would also enforce its mandate with a firm, fair and friendly manner, yet also be able to flip the switch and be utterly savage in draconian enforcement when it needed to be.

Short of that we will need to let them kill themselves until both sides are sick and want to talk.

The best we as Westerners can do is ensure that Israeli reactions are taken with proportionality, and that Iran and other nations that would like the see Israel wiped out, aren’t able to extent any influence in the area.

Keep in mind that for years, no one wanted the Jews, and Israel was set up primarily due to Western Guilt after WW2, and had their own dirty war prior to the formation.

While I am on Israeli’s side mostly in this area, I’m not blind to see that they have a lot of skeletons too, and until their Government follows their own and international laws WRT settlements, that Hamas et al. will constrantly be able to recruit support and have some victim card to play. The moral high ground must be occupied by actions, just not words.

Or if the Israeli’s decide for a lasting victory that they must bury the Palestinian hearts and minds, and accept being an international pariah, then I’m at a loss, as we as a collective society are failing stopping Russian from doing that in Ukraine, and unlike Israel, Russia has no legitimate claims that their actions are defensive at all.

That may well be one of the reads on the current situation and a possible solution.
I knew there was a reason I spend time on this site.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The irony is that Palestinians had the closest they were likely ever going to have a two nation solution in 2005…full control of their territory in Gaza AND no IDF in Gaza. It only took until…checks second had in stopwatch…2006 to screw that up, depowering the Palestinian Authority and supporting Hamas, as though that was going to give them a better life than having the PA support them.

Considering the current Israeli PM funded and supported Hamas in that time period to set the conditions as they are today they are also to blame. When you actively have the Israelis undermining the moderates to allow them to pursuit maximalist goals (i.e. annexation of Israel and Palestine) what do you think is going to happen?

I think you're right about Israel wanting to get rid of Palestinians.

What's Israels options at this point though? Palestinians support a government that wants to eradicate jews and eliminate Israel.

There is plenty of options. Start working towards giving the Palestinians options. Give them education, training, work, a way to earn decent money and increase their standards of living. Address their grievances in a fair and legitimate manner. Extremism is taking hold simply because there is no other viable option. And any time they have started to create one it is actively undermined by Israel.

If you were a Palestinian why wouldn’t you hate Israel? They forcibly ejected your grandparents from their homes, and are still doing so today with their settlers. They have created a court system which rejects any right for your people to live there despite having lived there for centuries. They are actively blockading you so your economic options are extremely limited. If you dare to protest them or report on the situation you get shot and those soldiers are not held accountable.

Oh and to top it off if you dare to resist them in any way they respond with substantially more brute force and you could even hope to muster.

 

[KevinB]

Considering the current Israeli PM funded and supported Hamas in that time period to set the conditions as they are today they are also to blame. When you actively have the Israelis undermining the moderates to allow them to pursuit maximalist goals (i.e. annexation of Israel and Palestine) what do you think is going to happen?

Israel pulled out and let the Palestinians decide. The fact that Hamas came to power and Israel funded the government to administer the area, doesn’t mean what you are trying to suggest it means.

Now I saw that with the understanding that Bibby is a train wreck who could fit well in 1984…

There is plenty of options. Start working towards giving the Palestinians options. Give them education, training, work, a way to earn decent money and increase their standards of living. Address their grievances in a fair and legitimate manner.

It’s been done before. Imagine if Hamas hadn’t taken the money and used to to make mansions for their leaders and exploited their people?

Extremism is taking hold simply because there is no other viable option. And any time they have started to create one it is actively undermined by Israel.

If you were a Palestinian why wouldn’t you hate Israel? They forcibly ejected your grandparents from their homes, and are still doing so today with their settlers. They have created a court system which rejects any right for your people to live there despite having lived there for centuries. They are actively blockading you so your economic options are extremely limited. If you dare to protest them or report on the situation you get shot and those soldiers are not held accountable.

So Gaza was self governed since 2005, the West Bank issues should not be lumped in with those, as the issues don’t overlap

Oh and to top it off if you dare to resist them in any way they respond with substantially more brute force and you could even hope to muster.

Did you watch what happened the 7th of October?

 

[RangerRay]

The US, UK and Australia are sanctioning Hamas funders connected to Iran and China. What’s Canada going to do about it?

US, Australia and UK sanction Hamas-funders linked to Iran and China

Canada is also a "host" to Iranian threat networks former RCMP expert says

www.thebureau.news

In an interview Calvin Chrustie, a former RCMP transnational crime investigator, said Canada’s exclusion from the trio of “Five Eyes” partners sanctioning financiers of Hamas, including the IRGC, underlines troubling evidence that Canada has become a host nation for Iranian and Chinese threat networks, and Ottawa is increasingly out of step with Western allies.

 

[KevinB]

The US, UK and Australia are sanctioning Hamas funders connected to Iran and China. What’s Canada going to do about it?

US, Australia and UK sanction Hamas-funders linked to Iran and China

Canada is also a "host" to Iranian threat networks former RCMP expert says

www.thebureau.news

If Canada was marching in formation with the res for the allies, JT would be the parent crowing from the stands, ‘look at my little Johnny, he’s the only one in step’

 

[Kirkhill]

Umm don't think so, just following GB, Fr and USA dictates.

1947 - only about one third of the countries now part of the UN system were part of the UN then and most of those were in the Americas. A good chunk of them were represented at the UN by London and Paris. And the UN was only 3 years old.

The UN was the second attempt to get Woodrow Wilson's idea off the ground and Marshall was running around twisting arms to make it happen.

Attlee's Britain was largely out of the game. It abstained from the Israel vote on the grounds it was supposed to be a neutral party administering the League of Nations Mandate. France was still picking up the pieces.

The UN was heavily influenced by US policy and that policy supported Israel.

But it wasn't the US that got stuck with the legacy of the Israel vote. It was the UN.

The UN was then co-opted by all those new/old countries freed by London and Paris. Since they joined they have made sure that they are never going to lose another Israel vote. The UN was subject to a hostile takeover.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Interesting that French and Italian navies are both parking LHD off of Gaza (or docked in Egypt) to provide health and surgical care to Palestinians of Hamas persuasion.
For those who constantly push for the RCN to have an LHD, this is perhaps one role that the current government could get behind.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/french-warship-treats-around-1000-injured-gazans-off-egyptian-shore/

 

[Jarnhamar]

There is plenty of options.

Not really.

They had options when Israel pulled out of Gaza. The option they went with was Hamas. They watched Hamas steal aid money and supplies. Then Hamas turned their cities into Stalingrad 2.0

People gloss over the support Hamas has with the population. When that one POS called home to brag about murdering 10 people his parents celebrated.

If you were a Palestinian why wouldn’t you hate Israel?

This is why there isn't really any options. They would rather have their water pipes ripped up and used as rockets because fuck Israel.

Kev's right, this won't stop until both sides want to stop killing each other. And it seems like hating Israel has become a part of Palestinians identity so that might take a while.

 

[KevinB]

Honestly if I was an Israeli, after 7 Oct, I’d have been fine with treating Gaza like Dresden, with the exception it’s got a lot of concrete so you’d need a lot more incendiaries.

Then you could bulldoze it to the sea, and move the Palestinians from the West Bank over there, fund the infrastructure and rebuild. With the understanding that if a 7 Oct issue even gets imagined by the leadership of the Palestinians there’s that there won’t be any more Palestinians.

So on that side, the Palestinians are lucky I’m a CAN-AM WASP, and not running the IDF or the Knesset.

 

[KevinB]

Interactive Map: Israel's Operation in Gaza

This interactive map complements the static Israel war maps that ISW-CTP daily produces with high-fidelity and, where possible, street level assessments of the war in Israel. ISW’s and CTP's daily campaign assessments of the war in Israel, including our static maps, are available at...

storymaps.arcgis.com