Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Maxman1]

Props to Housefather - who has often been the voice of reason since Oct 7-, Mendicino, and Carr.

Mendicino is more of a broken clock, given his past failures.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Mendicino is more of a broken clock, given his past failures.

I still 'tip my hat' to the broken clock twice a day. Its when one of the arms finally breaks and falls off that its completely useless. That's the time to throw it away.

 

[ArmyRick]

Mendicino is more of a broken clock, given his past failures.

I think Marco has jhad a moment of pause to reflect on things since Trudeau kicked him out of the inner circle....

 

[The Bread Guy]

... War's over, they wanted it, we formally declared it, conquered the territory, signed the formal ending of the war. Case closed.

And the chances of Hamas signing the formal ending of the war are ...? The legal beagles that are complaining now would say the place's been annexed, not "won". And the hits would just keep on coming ....

... The old 'devil you can work with' vs the one that you'd rather kill off.

Some say ISR helped create/facilitate Hamas as a foil to the PLO in previous iterations of the troubles in that part of the world - don't know if past experience would suggest it's a great approach in the longer term.

The amended motion is pretty weak though and, once again, proves that the Liberals are being led around by the nose by the NDP:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/joly-ndp-motion-palestinian-state-recognition-1.7147521

With the NDP not even reaping any apparent political gain from it. #DumbAndDumber

 

[OldSolduer]

What a horrible way to treat an ally. Where’s the funding for these a$$hats coming from?

 

[Eaglelord17]

So what does that actually mean? There is NO place called 'Palestine' that is governed by 1 single, internationally recognized, entity. Do they mean 'Gaza' run by Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization or do they mean Palestinian Authority's rule over the West Bank?
As for its 'right to defend itself' against Israel - who started this latest round of shit? 'Palestine' or the State of Israel.

What if Israel actually, formally, declared 'War' against this 'Palestine' and conquered it and decided to rule it in the same many as what the Allies did to Germany and/or Japan after WWII, then what? Would the rest of the world stfu? War's over, they wanted it, we formally declared it, conquered the territory, signed the formal ending of the war. Case closed.

Maybe if Israel stopped annexing land that isn’t theirs, forcibly driving the inhabitants from their homes if not outright murdering them, and essentially having a apartheid state the world would view them more favourably.

As to who started this round, at the end of the day there never really is peace over there. There was escalation but neither side stopped the wrongs they were committing and have been committing for the last 80 years. Israel never stopped annexing Palestinian land, and has even accelerated it. The West Bank (completely unrelated to this recent spat with Gaza) has had the settlers drastically increase the rate of annexation well Israel is actively arming them to do so. Just look at the Palestinians death rate during the ‘peace’ for a bit of understanding as to why there will be none.

Israel declaring war and annexing land is illegal under international law, just as what Russia is doing in Ukraine is. It’s either we believe in the modern rules based order and don’t allow countries to act against that, or we go back to the pre-1945 system of empires and rule by force.

Just pretending Israel good, Palestine bad is a simplistic view of it all. Israel isn’t a good nation, they do lots of evil on the daily. Turning a blind eye to their poor behaviour isn’t doing anyone any favours. Hamas and some Palestinian groups are also evil and do evil on the daily.

Right now a bunch of innocent civilians are dying due to this war. The Israelis aren’t acting in good faith and depending on who is where, isn’t protecting civilians. If anything it is very likely a bunch of their soldiers are purposely killing civilians.

Remember those hostages which were just trying to get back to Israel and were shot by the Israelis despite waving a white flag? How many times has incidents like that played out since this started except instead of killing Israeli hostages they are killing Palestinian civilians (and calling them terrorists afterwards)?

If anything at the minimum we should be declaring their settler groups terrorist organizations and anyone funding them sanctioned. They would meet the criteria, use of violence against civilians with the goal of bringing about political results (in this case the forcible annexation of Palestine due to religious ideology).

I don’t agree with Hamas, but that doesn’t mean I believe Israel should be given carte blanche to do what they please and kill whoever they like. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Just because a terrorist group killed some of your citizens, it doesn’t give you the right to murder 10s of thousands of others not involved. By that logic the British could have invaded Ireland, drove the Irish basically to the sea, and killed many thousands to get the IRA.

 

[Kirkhill]

Israel PM says army will enter Rafah despite 'international pressure'

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday that Israeli troops would pursue a planned ground offensive in southern Gaza's Rafah that has spurred fears of mass civilian casualties.

www.france24.com

Netanyahu as Pournelle's Mercenary.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe if Israel stopped annexing land that isn’t theirs, forcibly driving the inhabitants from their homes if not outright murdering them, and essentially having a apartheid state the world would view them more favourably.

As to who started this round, at the end of the day there never really is peace over there. There was escalation but neither side stopped the wrongs they were committing and have been committing for the last 80 years. Israel never stopped annexing Palestinian land, and has even accelerated it. The West Bank (completely unrelated to this recent spat with Gaza) has had the settlers drastically increase the rate of annexation well Israel is actively arming them to do so. Just look at the Palestinians death rate during the ‘peace’ for a bit of understanding as to why there will be none.

Israel declaring war and annexing land is illegal under international law, just as what Russia is doing in Ukraine is. It’s either we believe in the modern rules based order and don’t allow countries to act against that, or we go back to the pre-1945 system of empires and rule by force.

Just pretending Israel good, Palestine bad is a simplistic view of it all. Israel isn’t a good nation, they do lots of evil on the daily. Turning a blind eye to their poor behaviour isn’t doing anyone any favours. Hamas and some Palestinian groups are also evil and do evil on the daily.

Right now a bunch of innocent civilians are dying due to this war. The Israelis aren’t acting in good faith and depending on who is where, isn’t protecting civilians. If anything it is very likely a bunch of their soldiers are purposely killing civilians.

Remember those hostages which were just trying to get back to Israel and were shot by the Israelis despite waving a white flag? How many times has incidents like that played out since this started except instead of killing Israeli hostages they are killing Palestinian civilians (and calling them terrorists afterwards)?

If anything at the minimum we should be declaring their settler groups terrorist organizations and anyone funding them sanctioned. They would meet the criteria, use of violence against civilians with the goal of bringing about political results (in this case the forcible annexation of Palestine due to religious ideology).

I don’t agree with Hamas, but that doesn’t mean I believe Israel should be given carte blanche to do what they please and kill whoever they like. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Just because a terrorist group killed some of your citizens, it doesn’t give you the right to murder 10s of thousands of others not involved. By that logic the British could have invaded Ireland, drove the Irish basically to the sea, and killed many thousands to get the IRA.

Actually the Muslims are the Colonists and Jews were there long before they were Muslims or Christians. Most of the Jews had been forced out of the region by the Romans and scattered across Europe and the now Islamic world. The Jews in both Christian and Islamic areas faced pogroms, ethnic cleansing, genocide, discrimination, slavery for centuries. Come 1948 and the founding of Israel, things got much worse for Jews in the Islamic areas and populations of Jews in those areas who had been there since at least Roman times were expelled and lost everything. Most of those were brought to Israel. As for the population that was there before Israel, looking at the various census data, the area was sparsely settled during the Ottoman times. Once the British Mandate took over the population of both Arab and Jews increased significantly, partly because of immigration and partly through the massive reduction in infant mortality. The Brits also rebuilt the port of Haifa which created a lot of jobs attracting Arabs from across the ME. Recent DNA testing shows a interesting mix and the population of the WB Arabs actually differs than the Arab population of Gaza.
The "Palestinians" never had a State in what is now known as Israel, they were always the subjects of someone else. The Turks have a saying "Better to kick an Arab than a dog". The Ottomans utterly despised the Arabs and taxed them ruthlessly. They tolerated the Jews, who were at least considered useful and contributed to the treasury. The Ottomans also had to go and put down the first attempt at by the House of Saud to seize Mecca and who behaved very much like ISIS. The British did give the Palestinians a State, it's called Jordan, the population there is source population for the WB.
The real reason the Muslims hate the Israelis is because they don't know their place. Under Islamic law, Jews and Christians must be subservient to their Islamic master. Sharia Law and the hadiths in regards to the treatment of others make the Indian Act here look like a masterpiece of human kindness.

 

[TacticalTea]

Just because a terrorist group killed some of your citizens, it doesn’t give you the right to murder 10s of thousands of others not involved. By that logic the British could have invaded Ireland, drove the Irish basically to the sea, and killed many thousands to get the IRA.

If all of continental Europe had also consisted of Irishmen who wanted to annihilate Britain, and if Ireland had actually been as close to London as Windsor, then yes, that might have been necessary.

That is, in fact, what pretty much every single nation ever did to secure their national territory.

Now, we live in a different world, with different sensitivities. The Arabs of Palestine and elsewhere could've decided to let Israel be and chosen to live in peace, but they didn't.

Seeds sown. Olives reaped.

 

[Quirky]

Israel already lived in a de-facto two-state solution, and look how well that turned out. Renaming Gaza to Palestine isn't going to change anything without a peace agreement. You can forget the West Bank becoming Palestine territory, it's too close to Tel Aviv and the airport not to mention being higher ground. It would be a strategic mistake.

 

[Furniture]

Israel already lived in a de-facto two-state solution, and look how well that turned out. Renaming Gaza to Palestine isn't going to change anything without a peace agreement. You can forget the West Bank becoming Palestine territory, it's too close to Tel Aviv and the airport not to mention being higher ground. It would be a strategic mistake.

The "two state" solution is like communism, when it fails people will claim it wasn't "a real two state solution".

Palestinians are the Scottish of the Middle East. They keep picking fights, losing, then turning their losses into stories about how they really won...

 

[Kirkhill]

The "two state" solution is like communism, when it fails people will claim it wasn't "a real two state solution".

Palestinians are the Scottish of the Middle East. They keep picking fights, losing, then turning their losses into stories about how they really won...

And speaking of real Scotsmen...

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Czech_pivo]

The "two state" solution is like communism, when it fails people will claim it wasn't "a real two state solution".

Palestinians are the Scottish of the Middle East. They keep picking fights, losing, then turning their losses into stories about how they really won...

I thought that was the Kurds?

 

[Furniture]

I thought that was the Kurds?

Maybe they're more Irish?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

That whole exercise demonstrates how dysfunctional our parliament has become. Scheer was right to raise a Point of Order to delay the vote because I guarantee no member of the NDP, LPC or Bloc read the amendments as written in any detail.

Political theatre and jockeying that now has geopolitical strategic impacts.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Israel already lived in a de-facto two-state solution, and look how well that turned out. Renaming Gaza to Palestine isn't going to change anything without a peace agreement. You can forget the West Bank becoming Palestine territory, it's too close to Tel Aviv and the airport not to mention being higher ground. It would be a strategic mistake. suicide.

FIFY

 

[Good2Golf]

Israel already lived in a de-facto two-state solution, and look how well that turned out. Renaming Gaza to Palestine isn't going to change anything without a peace agreement. You can forget the West Bank becoming Palestine territory, it's too close to Tel Aviv and the airport not to mention being higher ground. It would be a strategic mistake.

Fatah (and even Hezbollah) have enough sense not to poke Israel into going full bore. Hamas is the most compliant of Iran’s proxies, so it’s getting the brunt of Iran’s proxy war in Israel.

 

[Good2Golf]

That whole exercise demonstrates how dysfunctional our parliament has become. Scheer was right to raise a Point of Order to delay the vote because I guarantee no member of the NDP, LPC or Bloc read the amendments as written in any detail.

Political theatre and jockeying that now still has geopolitically insignificant strategic impacts.

FTFY

 

[daftandbarmy]

Maybe they're more Irish?

There seem to be some parallels

"Much is said about English severity, but not a word about Irish provocation."

- Sir Robert Peel

 

[Kirkhill]

Seeing as how we are talking about the Irish and St Paddy's Day is just gone by...

Patrick was born at the end of Roman rule in Britain. His birthplace is not known with any certainty; some traditions place it in what is now England—one identifying it as Glannoventa (modern Ravenglass in Cumbria). In 1981, Thomas argued at length for the areas of Birdoswald, twenty miles (32 km) east of Carlisle on Hadrian's Wall. Thomas 1981, pp. 310–14. In 1993, Paor glossed it as "[probably near] Carlisle". There is a Roman town known as Bannaventa in Northamptonshire, which is phonically similar to the Bannavem Taburniae mentioned in Patrick’s confession, but this is probably too far from the sea.[27] Claims have also been advanced for locations in present-day Scotland, with the Catholic Encyclopedia stating that Patrick was born in Kilpatrick, Scotland.[28] In 1926 Eoin MacNeill also advanced a claim for Glamorgan in south Wales,[29] possibly the village of Banwen, in the Upper Dulais Valley, which was the location of a Roman marching camp.[30]

Patrick's father, Calpurnius, is described as a decurion (Senator and tax collector) of an unspecified Romano-British city, and as a deacon; his grandfather Potitus was a priest from Bonaven Tabernia.[31] However, Patrick's confession states he was not an active believer in his youth, and considered himself in that period to be "idle and callow".[32]

According to the Confession of Saint Patrick, at the age of sixteen, he was captured by a group of Irish pirates, from his family's Villa at "Bannavem Taburniae".[33] They took him to Ireland where he was enslaved and held captive for six years. Patrick writes in the Confession[33] that the time he spent in captivity was critical to his spiritual development. He explains that the Lord had mercy on his youth and ignorance, and afforded him the opportunity to be forgiven his sins and to grow in his faith through prayer.

The Dál Riata raiders who kidnapped him introduced him to the Irish culture that would define his life and reputation.[32] While in captivity, he worked as a shepherd and strengthened his relationship with God through prayer, eventually leading him to deepen his faith.[33]

After six years of captivity, he heard a voice telling him that he would soon go home, and then that his ship was ready. Fleeing his master, he travelled to a port, two hundred miles away,[34] where he found a ship and with difficulty persuaded the captain to take him. After three days' sailing, they landed, presumably in Britain, and apparently all left the ship, walking for 28 days in a "wilderness" and becoming faint from hunger. Patrick's account of his escape from slavery and return home to Britain is recounted in his Declaration.[35] After Patrick prayed for sustenance, they encountered a herd of wild boar;[36] since this was shortly after Patrick had urged them to put their faith in God, his prestige in the group was greatly increased. After various adventures, he returned home to his family, now in his early twenties.[37] After returning home to Britain, Patrick continued to study Christianity.

Patrick was a Briton. Probably from Scotland but from the Borders anyway.

Captured by a bunch of slaving Fenians, pagans the lot of them. Managed to escape their clutches and made it back home. Returned to Ireland out of the goodness of his heart and freed them from all the snakes in their country.

And do you see the thanks that we get?