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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

  • Thread starter Thread starter McG
  • Start date Start date
Have you ever visited the middle east @abduly85 ?
Visited? I was born and raised in the Middle East. Came here in high school.

Forgetting the sheer number of Canadians who can't even find Gaza on the map, sure I'd buy that stat. In fact I would lean towards "Yes they probably are committing genocide, at least as far as trying to forcefully remove a population".
I don't really see a valid connection between the ability of locating Gaza on a map (or any other place for that matter) and having sympathy with the people being massacred there.

I mean, I hear about abuse of children and child labour crimes in the DRC and I sympathize with them and try to amplify their cause on social media. Yet, I think I need 2 or 3 attempts to locate it on a amp (I know it's somewhere in central Africa).

So it's totally normal, and actually expected, that half of Canadians think it's a genocide. Especially when they see on their social media accounts daily images of Palestinian people and their starving children being blown to bits... While the other side (IDF and many Israeli figures) are publicly making genocidal statements asking to make Gaza a parking lot and making tiktok/IG videos of themselves gleefully blowing up blocks, mosques, schools and dressed up in displaced women's clothes.
 
They’re trying to, with their constant attacks on civilian shipping. They’re just mostly (not completely) unable to slip shots past US Navy missile defense. But absolutely the Houthis are trying to murder civilians en masse. Those ships aren’t crewed by Roombas.
There's a difference between targeting shipping and targeting festivals.

Russian industry is a valid target for Ukraine, why shouldn't US shipping be a valid target for the Houthis?
 
Visited? I was born and raised in the Middle East. Came here in high school.
I must have misremembered something, sorry about that.

I don't really see a valid connection between the ability of locating Gaza on a map (or any other place for that matter) and having sympathy with the people being massacred there.
You're really good at this game Abduly. Much more crafty than me.

We weren't talking about Canadians being polled on having sympathy. We were talking about Canadians believing it was genocide. Which as we both know involves some nuance. If Canadians can't find Gaza on a map how versed are they going to be in the accurate application of what should be considered genocide?

I mean, I hear about abuse of children and child labour crimes in the DRC and I sympathize with them and try to amplify their cause on social media. Yet, I think I need 2 or 3 attempts to locate it on a amp (I know it's somewhere in central Africa).
Do you feel confident explaining what child labour crimes are being broken in the DRC since you hear about it?
 
There's a difference between targeting shipping and targeting festivals.

Russian industry is a valid target for Ukraine, why shouldn't US shipping be a valid target for the Houthis?

What US shipping? They’ve been shooting at all manner of civilian shipping, seemingly regardless of flag. There’s no national consistency to what they’re targeting or hitting, nor any evidence that the bulk of it has anything to do with military goods or any ongoing conflict. You’re suggesting an analogy to sitting on a highway overpass firing grenades into random transport trucks because one might have come form or be headed to a military base. The houthis are firing at any civilian vessel they can successfully target. The most appropriate comparison is simple piracy, in an indiscriminately murderous form.
 
Visited? I was born and raised in the Middle East. Came here in high school.

Interesting that you don’t say in what country you were born. Since you have stated that you have not been to Gaza, the odds are then that you were born an Arab. Why then move away from your birth country, to a country like Canada? How did your other family members get into Gaza and why?
 
What US shipping? They’ve been shooting at all manner of civilian shipping, seemingly regardless of flag. There’s no national consistency to what they’re targeting or hitting, nor any evidence that the bulk of it has anything to do with military goods or any ongoing conflict. You’re suggesting an analogy to sitting on a highway overpass firing grenades into random transport trucks because one might have come form or be headed to a military base. The houthis are firing at any civilian vessel they can successfully target. The most appropriate comparison is simple piracy, in an indiscriminately murderous form.
Yawn.

You're ridiculous.

You're acting as if I said I'm happy the Houthis are attacking ships.

And then you're pretending you see no difference between targeting shipping and mass murdering festival goers.

When we all know you're smart enough to see the difference.

In my mind that makes you a liar.
 
So it's totally normal, and actually expected, that half of Canadians think it's a genocide.

Half of canadians don't know the meaning of genocide. It's like calling everything that goes wrong a crisis. When everything is a genocide, nothing is a genocide.
 
Yawn.

You're ridiculous.

You're acting as if I said I'm happy the Houthis are attacking ships.

And then you're pretending you see no difference between targeting shipping and mass murdering festival goers.

When we all know you're smart enough to see the difference.

In my mind that makes you a liar.
That’s a pretty aggressive take, and frankly is there are difference between targeting civilians in one location than another?

Because that’s basically the claim you’re making, and then lashing out at @brihard for pointing that out.

I’d suggest you may want to pull your neck in a bit, as I don’t think you have a point.
 
The Houthi are targeting 3rd world sailors for the most part who are just trying to feed their families. They are not killing Jews or Americans, but they don't really care. The Houthi leadership cares only slightly more for it's own people than Hamas and will slit the throats of anyone who disagrees with them.
 
Visited? I was born and raised in the Middle East. Came here in high school.
Define here please.
I don't really see a valid connection between the ability of locating Gaza on a map (or any other place for that matter) and having sympathy with the people being massacred there.

I mean, I hear about abuse of children and child labour crimes in the DRC and I sympathize with them and try to amplify their cause on social media. Yet, I think I need 2 or 3 attempts to locate it on a amp (I know it's somewhere in central Africa).
Well knowing where someplace is helps inform the issues that the country can face.
The "Democratic" republic of Congo is the 2nd largest country in Africa - and is fairly centrally located in the continent (albeit more West than East). As far as the abuse of children and child labor go, about 50% of the Congo's exports go to China... Pretty much all that managed to occur from the Belgian rule to "self rule" is changing the hands of those who exploit it.
Africa has its own rules, and unfortunately rule of the gun is the majority.

So it's totally normal, and actually expected, that half of Canadians think it's a genocide. Especially when they see on their social media accounts daily images of Palestinian people and their starving children being blown to bits... While the other side (IDF and many Israeli figures) are publicly making genocidal statements asking to make Gaza a parking lot and making tiktok/IG videos of themselves gleefully blowing up blocks, mosques, schools and dressed up in displaced women's clothes.
Again who is making the children starve? Given the amount of food and supplies that has been poured into Gaza, the fact that HAMS is limiting its distribution to use as a club to control the population, as well as launching attacks from civilian areas, Mosques, schools, and hospitals...

Gaza was left to it's own devices when the Israeli's pulled out, it was supplied with multiple millions of dollars in aid, food, energy - and yet chose a path of war on Israel.

Were I can be sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians in the WB who are injured or killed by Israeli excesses (and making a distinction between those who are innocently targeted by extremist settlers, and those who are legitimately targeted by their actions) - I don't have a lot of sympathy for Palestinians in Gaza, as they had all the opportunities in the world, and chose to throw it away to chase the idea of getting rid of Israel, and attempting to exterminate Jewish civilians.
 
Well knowing where someplace is helps inform the issues that the country can face.
The "Democratic" republic of Congo is the 2nd largest country in Africa - and is fairly centrally located in the continent (albeit more West than East). As far as the abuse of children and child labor go, about 50% of the Congo's exports go to China... Pretty much all that managed to occur from the Belgian rule to "self rule" is changing the hands of those who exploit it.
Africa has its own rules, and unfortunately rule of the gun is the majority.
If you have the word "Democratic" in your nation's name, chances are you are far from "Democratic".

Stalin once said "It is not important who votes, it is important who COUNTS the votes"

And in Africa who has the most guns.....
 
Yawn.

You're ridiculous.

You're acting as if I said I'm happy the Houthis are attacking ships.

And then you're pretending you see no difference between targeting shipping and mass murdering festival goers.

When we all know you're smart enough to see the difference.

In my mind that makes you a liar.
If you’re tired, take a nap. It might help your logical reasoning and your attitude.

I did not suggest you’re ‘happy’ Houthis are shooting at ships, I merely responded to your exact words:
Not mad at the Houthis. They're doing what they can to advance their cause. At least they're not engaging in mass murder (in this context) (to my knowledge).

Fine to be ‘not mad’ at the Houthis, terrorism and quasi-piracy notwithstanding. I never suggested otherwise. I pointed out the problems with your logic and your falsely premised assertion in your next post:

There's a difference between targeting shipping and targeting festivals.

Russian industry is a valid target for Ukraine, why shouldn't US shipping be a valid target for the Houthis?

Targeting enemy shipping during a lawful armed conflict is one thing, but this isn’t that. I asked you “what US shipping?” and you got mad. Most of the shipping has no cognizable link to the Israel-Hamas conflict; even if the Houthis had lawful military aims (they don’t), they still fail completely on proportionality, discrimination, and military necessity.

There is no moral distinction between murdering innocent civilian concertgoers and murdering innocent civilian mariners. The fact that a technological mismatch has kept Houthi success to a minimum in no way morally absolves them. They are trying and intending to sink those ships and kill or maim their crews. Maybe you have some knowledge the rest of us don’t about why attacks on Greek-owned, Cyprus-registered ships crewed by Philippinos carrying bulk cargo from Singapore to Barcelona is a legitimate military strike on US or Israeli shipping, but if you do I don’t think the rest of us live in that world.

The Houthis are attempting to commit mass murder. Lack of success doesn’t negate their actions. The Houthi actions are malicious, illegal, and evil, and are not rooted in any valid claim to lawful use of armed force.

As for lying? I don’t need to; you’re entitled to your own opinions, but you aren’t entitled to your own set of facts- and I’m perfectly comfortable speaking to the fact set as it is. I have done so.

If you’re unconcerned about growing your own credibility deficit, that’s none of my business. You do you.
 
Interesting that you don’t say in what country you were born. Since you have stated that you have not been to Gaza, the odds are then that you were born an Arab. Why then move away from your birth country, to a country like Canada? How did your other family members get into Gaza and why?
Surely a man who isn't afraid to question the loyalty of a decorated Canadian soldier isn't afraid to proudly disclose the country of their own birth .
 
Interesting that you don’t say in what country you were born. Since you have stated that you have not been to Gaza, the odds are then that you were born an Arab. Why then move away from your birth country, to a country like Canada? How did your other family members get into Gaza and why?
I really have my work cut out for me here. But you know, I'm really glad that you asked because there's alot of ignorance about the history of the Palestinian diaspora, especially in the West. That's why I'm here!

I honestly had a good chuckle when I read "odds are that you were born an Arab"! This tells me how successful the Israeli propaganda and Hasbara machine have been in convincing many that there is really no such thing as Palestinian people. Just some "Arabs" roaming the deserts of the Negev and Transjordan until Israel was created.

Just like many other hundreds of thousands of 2nd/3rd generation Palestinian refugees born in the diaspora, I was born in Saudi Arabia. Most of my parents' generation turned to higher education as their only option (having lost their farming lands and businesses), became doctors, teachers, engineers... etc and many found work in the Gulf Countries.

Now, your next question "Why then move away from your birth country". This shows a lack of knowledge of the Arab world, because the answer is simple. It's because there is no Arab country that grants citizenship by birth only (especially the rich gulf countries, I guess to limit the distribution of their wealth). So Palestinians (and their offspring) remained Palestinians in the Arab world.

In the Gulf, you could live there for generations and still be denied public services (public higher education, health care insurance, real estate ownership ...etc ) and above all, the sense of stability and security.
So we were still considered stateless (with an Egyptian Travel Document, which is a semi-passport that even Egypt wouldn't let you in with), getting close to graduating high school with no available college/university options in Saudi (back then there were no private universities in Saudi, things have changed now). So Canada was an option and the rest is history.

As for how/why I still have family in Gaza, well it's because not the whole "clan" left Gaza. Long story short, some family member had to leave Gaza as a result of the 1967 war (like my parents and grand parents, so they lost their right to return) while many other family members stayed till this day.

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your response will be: "hmm, I wonder why their Arab brothers wouldn't give the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them into their societies?"
 
Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your response will be: "hmm, I wonder why their Arab brothers wouldn't give the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them into their societies?"
No. But I am intrigued as to how doctors, engineers and professors couldn’t get Saudi citizenship…
 
Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your response will be: "hmm, I wonder why their Arab brothers wouldn't give the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them into their societies?"

Asking out of good faith and honest curiosity- is there any sort of generalizable attitude/belief among the broader diaspora about this refusal by Arab nations to welcome Palestinians and let them naturalize, or at least achieve broadly similar accesses to most services and benefits? I recognize the Arab nations don’t generally have the same concept of jus soli citizenship that we do.
 
Yes, I have experienced and seen it. In many ways.

My experience is that most young people today are severely socially-disabled. Social media and COVID devastated their development as social animals. They're constantly fixated on their phones and wearing earpods, insulating themselves from real life as much as possible. In class, they barely respond to professors, who often find themselves annoyed by silence moreso than by chaos.

The length of their development is dominated by algorithms that are provably demonstrated to be politically-oriented. Facebook's biases are well known, Twitter before Elon's takeover collaborated with the government to silence dissident voices, TikTok which is owned by China and programmed to teach kids the most civilizationally destructive thought patterns, dating apps and Instagram which absolutely wreck their perception of self and of the opposite-gender, etc.

They are less and less mature at older and older ages, as they are excessively coddled and protected from normal hardships and disagreement. They are all pushed into colleges, which means performance is over-emphasized, so they focus on memorizing the material so they can blurt it out, instead of analyzing it, questioning it, and truly understanding it. They perceive disagreement as personal attacks.

Dissidents are generally bullied into silence, lest they be ostracized.

Thus, while for you critical theories may not be problematic as an analytical tool, for easily-influenced youngsters they become the corner stones of destructive ideologies. Teaching gullible 21 year-olds that "Western civilization is nothing but a tyrannical, racist and xenophobic patriarchy" before they've had the chance to learn that their pampered lives have been made possible only by the providential existence of said civilization is a recipe for disaster.

Now, we also have to take into account our own biases. I know I am quite the dissident, and you are philosophically the bureaucrat's bureaucrat - no offence intended -, so two ends of a spectrum. Between your account that there is absolutely nothing to complain about and my doom & gloom experience, there is probably a middle ground, but I'd wager it's closer to what I describe, given one cannot ignore the well-documented influence of recent technological developments, as well as the long-run effects of Cultural-Marxist entryism on academia since the '60s.

I would caveat that the indoctrination, by most professors, is mostly accidental. It cannot be denied at the systemic level, though, when you look at the fact that faculties have gone from 60% liberal on average to more than 90%. Some faculties are more susceptible to these phenomena than others of course, STEM remaining vastly superior in quality to humanities (especially sociology, linguistics, psychology).
Idk where you're going to school pal but that certainly wasn't a thing where I went to school in the humanities (U of M), we just had a lot of debate and open enquiry.
 
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