Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Halifax Tar]

Right, but how much is that from Muslim countries "pushing" Jews out and how much is it from the local Jews saying "Waitwhat? There's a new Jewish country right next door I can move to and gain immediate citizenship? Sign me up!".

It was mostly the latter.

Im sure the Muslim countries fought hard to keep their Jewish populations.

 

[Lumber]

Im sure the Muslim countries fought hard to keep their Jewish populations.

Look, I don't disagree with your assessment of how butt hurt Iraq wasn't to lose all their Jews.

However, the current narrative, whether said clearly or simply implied, is that Israel is morally superior for allowing so many Muslims to live in Israel when Muslim countries within the ME and North Africa "kicked out" so many Jews. They use the population decline of Jews within those Muslim countries as evidence. This is a false narrative. It doesn't mean that Israel isn't "good" for what their treatment of Muslims within their country, but it does mean that the Muslim countries aren't "bad" just because the numbers of Jews in their countries went down.

Now, if you really want to assess if the Muslim countries are "bad" wrt their Jewish populations, you would need to look into how Jews were actually treated in those countries while they still lived there, and not really solely on population numbers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Look, I don't disagree with your assessment of how butt hurt Iraq wasn't to lose all their Jews.

However, the current narrative, whether said clearly or simply implied, is that Israel is morally superior for allowing so many Muslims to live in Israel when Muslim countries within the ME and North Africa "kicked out" so many Jews. They use the population decline of Jews within those Muslim countries as evidence. This is a false narrative. It doesn't mean that Israel isn't "good" for what their treatment of Muslims within their country, but it does mean that the Muslim countries aren't "bad" just because the numbers of Jews in their countries went down.

Now, if you really want to assess if the Muslim countries are "bad" wrt their Jewish populations, you would need to look into how Jews were actually treated in those countries while they still lived there, and not really solely on population numbers.

Arguably until Oct 7th the Israelis has been more welcoming to Palestinians than any Muslim country in the world.

The Palestinians FAFO'd too hard.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Arguably until Oct 7th the Israelis has been more welcoming to Palestinians than any Muslim country in the world.

The Palestinians FAFO'd too hard.

And Israeli leadership was FUBAR, of course ...

What went wrong? A summary of Israel's findings​

In an unusual move for the organization, the Shin Bet spy agency published details of its investigation Tuesday. Here is a list of its main findings:

• Israel maintained a policy of calm with Hamas, which allowed for the group's "massive buildup." Israel allowed Qatar to transfer millions of dollars to Hamas to fund its governing bureaucracy in Gaza. The money was diverted to Hamas' military capabilities.
• Israel falsely thought Hamas was trying to inflame tensions in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, rather than maneuvering to invade Israel from Gaza. Israel had concluded that any major attack would be a multi-front assault from militias throughout the region, not just from Gaza.
• Israel thought its border barrier with Gaza, a system of fences and walls, was more fortified than it actually was.
• Israel had a poor network of spies in Gaza, following a botched intelligence operation in Gaza that Hamas uncovered in 2018. Gaza is a closed-off territory, making it difficult for Israel to recruit sources there.
• Hamas's decision to attack when it did was due to a confluence of three factors: Israeli practices regarding religious Jewish ultranationalist activities at the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem, which is also revered in Judaism; Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners, which had hardened under Israel's far-right government; and the perception that Israel's social cohesion was weakened, which was at a time of domestic Israeli street protests over Netanyahu's weakening of the country's judiciary.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/05/nx-s1-5318591/israel-shin-bet-security-failure-october-7-attack

 

[Lumber]

and the perception that Israel's social cohesion was weakened, which was at a time of domestic Israeli street protests over Netanyahu's weakening of the country's judiciary.

People in the west aren't often aware of (or don't appreciate) just how huge a gulf there is between the Israeli left and the Israeli right.

Hamas wasn't aware that when it comes to the safety and security of Israel and its people, that that gulf doesn't exist.

 

[Quirky]

Israeli minister touts Gaza 'real estate bonanza', defying international backlash

Bezalel Smotrich, an ultranationalist who has been sanctioned by the UK and others, said he was in discussion with the US over the idea.

www.bbc.com

And reinforcing that this isn’t a military action against defined targets, rather levelling everything in sight to ethnic cleanse and annex land.

There isn’t much the world can/will do about it. Just more letters, resolutions and conference dog and pony shows.

 

[OldSolduer]

And Israeli leadership was FUBAR, of course ...

What went wrong? A summary of Israel's findings​

In an unusual move for the organization, the Shin Bet spy agency published details of its investigation Tuesday. Here is a list of its main findings:

• Israel maintained a policy of calm with Hamas, which allowed for the group's "massive buildup." Israel allowed Qatar to transfer millions of dollars to Hamas to fund its governing bureaucracy in Gaza. The money was diverted to Hamas' military capabilities.
• Israel falsely thought Hamas was trying to inflame tensions in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, rather than maneuvering to invade Israel from Gaza. Israel had concluded that any major attack would be a multi-front assault from militias throughout the region, not just from Gaza.
• Israel thought its border barrier with Gaza, a system of fences and walls, was more fortified than it actually was.
• Israel had a poor network of spies in Gaza, following a botched intelligence operation in Gaza that Hamas uncovered in 2018. Gaza is a closed-off territory, making it difficult for Israel to recruit sources there.
• Hamas's decision to attack when it did was due to a confluence of three factors: Israeli practices regarding religious Jewish ultranationalist activities at the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem, which is also revered in Judaism; Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners, which had hardened under Israel's far-right government; and the perception that Israel's social cohesion was weakened, which was at a time of domestic Israeli street protests over Netanyahu's weakening of the country's judiciary.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/05/nx-s1-5318591/israel-shin-bet-security-failure-october-7-attack

Complacency is the Reader's Digest version.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Right, but how much is that from Muslim countries "pushing" Jews out and how much is it from the local Jews saying "Waitwhat? There's a new Jewish country right next door I can move to and gain immediate citizenship? Sign me up!".

It was mostly the latter.

If your not a Muslim in a Islamic country, you are very much a 2nd class citizen, your rights to own property, to sue a Muslim and to get a job are very limited. In the more enlightened countries, you be lucky to be ignored, as long as you keep your head down and say nothing. The only place where the Jews might have been able to stay in large numbers was Morocco. The rest of the countries made it very clear what awaits if they stayed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

People in the west aren't often aware of (or don't appreciate) just how huge a gulf there is between the Israeli left and the Israeli right.

Hamas wasn't aware that when it comes to the safety and security of Israel and its people, that that gulf doesn't exist.

People would be shocked at how diverse Israelis are, 2 Israeli = 3 opinions. Sadly many of the victims of Oct 7th were vulnerable due to their attempts to help Palestinians and give them jobs. They were the people who believed the two could peacefully co-exist.