Has rank been watered down?

[armyvern]

Im curious... why would you salute/pay respect to an officer/SNCO that you dont respect?

(Bear with me, I'm leading into a point over the course of a few posts)

What??

You are not saluting the person -- you are saluting the Queen's Commission. Period. Paying appropriate courtesy compliments to the RANK does not equal "respecting" the individual who is sporting "The Queen's Commission."

You already know that though.

Respect is earned. Respect is an individualistic trait irregardless of rank. One either earns it or they don't.

Courtesy shown to an "appointment" or "Commission" is EXPECTED. It is NOT based upon personal and individual characteristics.

Take your point regarding RESPECT to a thread about RESPECT. This isn't it.

Lesson one: and back in the "old days" everyone knew the difference between the two. Do NOT confuse them.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

So you'd never, and you never have had a problem with saluting CIC? Afterall, they're comissioned.

 

[armyvern]

So you'd never, and you never have had a problem with saluting CIC? Afterall, they're comissioned.

No, I have not. They are Commissioned. That is the courtesy that their Commission warrants they receive. I have ZERO problems with that.

And, just so we are quite clear, in my line of work I have had the pleasure to work with and get to know many CiC Officers. 95% of them have also earned my FULL respect.

Are you insinuating that I should not be respectful of someone simply because they happen to be CiC?? If that's your outlook on life my friend ... and who is deserving of respect or not ... I'd wager you don't enjoy much of it (ie garnering respect) yourself. Like I said, RESPECT is earned by individuals. It's not based on rank, status, position, component.

That, by you, has got to be one of the most stupid statements that I have seen made on this site. Ever. It doesn't go too far either in building up any respect that I have for you ... or your opinion either -- rather the opposite.

 

[Roy Harding]

So you'd never, and you never have had a problem with saluting CIC? Afterall, they're comissioned.

Nope - but some of them have had a problem accepting and returning those salutes - they didn't quite "get it" - they were straightened out, by me, in a private area away from the Cadets.

You're bordering on trolling here, Forgotten_Hero - and approaching the area of becoming a Forgotten_Zero.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Funny how you've already attacked me as if what I said was reflecting my own opinion on the issue. Like I said, bear with me as I get to my point.

I know plenty of people, new and old, who DO have problems saluting CIC, and when asked why, they say its because they dont consider them soldiers/they dont respect them/ whatever the case is. Perhaps the problem with the new army stems, in part, from the attitudes of some in the old army? When a new troop hears an old WO or whatever rank explain to him that he didnt salute the CIC officer because he doesnt respect them or doesnt "consider" them officers, I'm willing to bet that the troop does begin to associate saluting with respect for the individual/position they occupy, rather than the rank. This opinion *has* been prevalent among the people I've worked with, and I did expect to find some people on these forums who do have problems saluting CIC officers, so I thought this would be a good way to get my point across.

As for whether I have hurt your "building" of respect for me, I really dont give a damn. Respect me or disrespect me all you want based on a couple lines on a message board, I've got better things to do than censor myself in order to satisfy you.

 

[Roy Harding]

Funny how you've already attacked me as if what I said was reflecting my own opinion on the issue. Like I said, bear with me as I get to my point.

No one has "attacked" you.

I know plenty of people, new and old, who DO have problems saluting CIC, and when asked why, they say its because they dont consider them soldiers/they dont respect them/ whatever the case is. Perhaps the problem with the new army stems, in part, from the attitudes of some in the old army? When a new troop hears an old WO or whatever rank explain to him that he didnt salute the CIC officer because he doesnt respect them or doesnt "consider" them officers, I'm willing to bet that the troop does begin to associate saluting with respect for the individual/position they occupy, rather than the rank. This opinion *has* been prevalent among the people I've worked with, and I did expect to find some people on these forums who do have problems saluting CIC officers, so I thought this would be a good way to get my point across.

I AM, for the purposes of this particular discussion - "Old Army" - I'm surprised to learn that you think "we" would have a problem regarding CIC Officers - the attitude you outline seems to be more prevalent in the "New Army", members of which seem to feel entitled to interpret rules and regulations as they see fit.

As for whether I have hurt your "building" of respect for me, I really dont give a damn. Respect me or disrespect me all you want based on a couple lines on a message board, I've got better things to do than censor myself in order to satisfy you.

Don't worry about whether I respect you or not - I don't really give a damn one way or the other, nor should you.  But as long as we're on the subject, your protestations on the matter speak volumes.

 

[armyvern]

Funny how you've already attacked me as if what I said was reflecting my own opinion on the issue. Like I said, bear with me as I get to my point.

I know plenty of people, new and old, who DO have problems saluting CIC, and when asked why, they say its because they dont consider them soldiers/they dont respect them/ whatever the case is. Perhaps the problem with the new army stems, in part, from the attitudes of some in the old army? When a new troop hears an old WO or whatever rank explain to him that he didnt salute the CIC officer because he doesnt respect them or doesnt "consider" them officers, I'm willing to bet that the troop does begin to associate saluting with respect for the individual/position they occupy, rather than the rank. This opinion *has* been prevalent among the people I've worked with, and I did expect to find some people on these forums who do have problems saluting CIC officers, so I thought this would be a good way to get my point across.

As for whether I have hurt your "building" of respect for me, I really dont give a damn. Respect me or disrespect me all you want based on a couple lines on a message board, I've got better things to do than censor myself in order to satisfy you.

Good then. I also suspect your post is bullshit. If you've got a point then make the damn thing already.

Throwing out your below one-liner with a note that "I'll be making a point over the next couple of posts" is absolute garbage.

And, I'd also wager that your remarks about "old timers" and this being a prevelant attitude amongst the "old timer" people you've worked with is also bullshit. I'll tell you this much, I've been around for 20 years now -- and I've corrected an awful lot of individuals who've failed to salute as appropriate. HINT: they WERE NOT Sgts and WOs. They still aren't, nor are they "old timers". Rather, saluting those who wear the "Commission" without whining about the individual who wears it, is standard for us/them "old timers."

 

[aesop081]

As for whether I have hurt your "building" of respect for me, I really dont give a damn. Respect me or disrespect me all you want based on a couple lines on a message board, I've got better things to do than censor myself in order to satisfy you.

Whatever you point was, i sure lost track of it now. In fact, i dont think you ever had one. You were more likely looking to stir the proverbial poo.

 

[benny88]

          I realize I'm very inexperienced, although I think that makes my weighing-in here relevant because I've only ever known the "new" CF. I'm shocked at many of the stories in these posts, I think the Instructors on my IAP less than a year ago did a fine job of making me and my platoon scared ****less. They never laid a hand on us, or used racist/sexist language, so maybe that has changed since the old days, but that didn't stop them from giving what I think of as appropriate "guidance." In short, they seemed to be thinking along the same lines as many of the posters on this thread.
         I remember a particular time in my 2nd or 3rd week when I was at the front of my formed platoon and called a passing PO "Sergeant" (He was in CADPAT...damn tactical slip ons and name tapes.) and was monumentally jacked up in front of my whole platoon. Pleasant? Nope. Lesson learned? Heck yes. Another time, as we were lined up waiting to swipe out for weekend leave, a Chief PO patrolled the line, threatening the raining down of fire and brimstone. The instructors at CFLRS were very serious and professional, and had my full respect (and my undivided attention.)
        The opinion of an OCdt means about squat, but I felt I had to jump in to defend a training system that I think is pretty effective. Well, at least effective enough to make me shudder at the thought of being caught with my feet up by a BGen.  

 

[Roy Harding]

          I realize I'm very inexperienced, although I think that makes my weighing-in here relevant because I've only ever known the "new" CF. I'm shocked at many of the stories in these posts, I think the Instructors on my IAP less than a year ago did a fine job of making me and my platoon scared ****less. They never laid a hand on us, or used racist/sexist language, so maybe that has changed since the old days, but that didn't stop them from giving what I think of as appropriate "guidance." In short, they seemed to be thinking along the same lines as many of the posters on this thread.
          I remember a particular time in my 2nd or 3rd week when I was at the front of my formed platoon and called a passing PO "Sergeant" (He was in CADPAT...damn tactical slip ons and name tapes.) and was monumentally jacked up in front of my whole platoon. Pleasant? Nope. Lesson learned? Heck yes. Another time, as we were lined up waiting to swipe out for weekend leave, a Chief PO patrolled the line, threatening the raining down of fire and brimstone. The instructors at CFLRS were very serious and professional, and had my full respect (and my undivided attention.)
        The opinion of an OCdt means about squat, but I felt I had to jump in to defend a training system that I think is pretty effective. Well, at least effective enough to make me shudder at the thought of being caught with my feet up by a BGen. 

I think you're right - and I think I said so (or at least attempted to) in earlier posts.

The "raining down of fire and brimstone" is generally thought of as "Old Army" - and it's one of the things that I don't think needs to be got rid of.  The absence of physical abuse, racism and sexism I whole heartedly applaud.

I think we're in agreement, benny88 - we're just having a problem agreeing on that.

 

[benny88]

I think we're in agreement, benny88 - we're just having a problem agreeing on that.

  No, I didn't mean to accuse people from the "Old School" or you in particular of advocating racist or sexist remarks at recruits or OCdts, nor do I think anyone had called into question the integrity of the training system. I just didn't want people who may not know any better to read this thread and think that we recieve inadequate training.

  We're agreed  8)

 

[Roy Harding]

...

  We're agreed  8)

Kewl  8)

 

[daftandbarmy]

Troops will pretty much do what the CO and RSM want them to do. If the CoC enforces the saluting thing and leads by example, and they should, it will happen. As you know, take a look at any section/ platoon or equivalent and how it's functioning and you can pretty well tell how the CoC functions, or not.

"If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?" Patton

 

[Roy Harding]

Troops will pretty much do what the CO and RSM want them to do. If the CoC enforces the saluting thing and leads by example, and they should, it will happen. As you know, take a look at any section/ platoon or equivalent and how it's functioning and you can pretty well tell how the CoC functions, or not.

"If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?" Patton

You (and Patton) are quite right.

It is, I think, the METHOD of getting them to "salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear" that is being examined here.

On the other hand - I've been out to lunch before.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I couldn't resist posting this old story about 'Chesty' Puller, a famous US Marine. It's an example of one method that seemed to work:

Chesty is loved by enlisted men for his constant actions to improve their lot. Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Chesty told the Lieutenant: "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times Lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

 

[Roy Harding]

I couldn't resist posting this old story about 'Chesty' Puller, a famous US Marine. It's an example of one method that seemed to work:

Chesty is loved by enlisted men for his constant actions to improve their lot. Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Chesty told the Lieutenant: "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times Lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

:rofl:

I've always loved "Chester Puller" stories - now I have another one to treasure.

 

[Sig_Des]

The not saluting someone whom you don't respect argument bugs me. Fact is this:

There is a huge difference between HAVING respect for someone, and SHOWING respect (or respects) to someone, or something.

You don't have to have respect for someone, yet you must still be able to show respect. We will all come across those in a senior position to us that we do not have a personal respect for, however you still must show respect to them. It's one of the those many army things that you don't have to like, you just have to do it.

I was raised as an army brat, and from when I joined, it was reinforced. You will always show respect. Wether this be through speech, action, or salute.

I'm also a firm believer in solving issues at the lowest level.

Someone doesn't pay compliments in a saluting area, someone who knows better goes and corrects the problem. If they tell you to fornicate your hat, well, they'll probably wear it, but you made that attempt to correct the fault.

As far as Popnfresh's call that he knows someone who shouldn't be on their PLQ. Do you know the whole story? They're probably on for a reason. Not your place to question it.

 

[JBoyd]

I couldn't resist posting this old story about 'Chesty' Puller, a famous US Marine. It's an example of one method that seemed to work:

Chesty is loved by enlisted men for his constant actions to improve their lot. Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Chesty told the Lieutenant: "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times Lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

Never heard of him, but he sounds like someone I could learn from. While reading his wiki page I found this under the above excerpt:

While on duty in Hawaii and inspecting the armory, Puller fined himself for discharging a weapon in an unsafe manner.

Now that IMO is a ironclad sense of self-discipline.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Here's a good piece of film to illustrate the issue, and a solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKYFqj9QZhk

 

[Furniture]

That video is great. Few things bother me more than people who are to lazy, or insubordinate to be bothered paying respects. Saluting is not hard and I'm sure we all had to pass a test on it in week four of BMQ.