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High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

Yes all the people who live on farms, mine, log or work in the Oilfields should move to the urban centres.
No, their work products should be priced to include the cost of the infrastructure they use. And they and their buyers should look for way to optimize those costs.

Just like how airlines pay for the costs of airports and not the general public subsidizing air travel and air freight.
 
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We're either pay per use or not.
Or we're both.
Roads should be pay per use. That means vendors price to cover those costs, and travellers make informed decisions, weighing personal convenience against cost.
Roads could be pay per use. But like so much else provided by government - like security - it's not.
Right now, remote / rural users are free riders, expecting the larger taxation system to subsidize their lifestyle choices.
Horseshit. Most of what goes on in the remote and rural parts of the country is required to prevent cities from decaying into rubble populated by howling savages. Construction materials, food, energy. Cities pay taxes to support remote and rural parts of the country in order to support themselves.
 
Horseshit. Most of what goes on in the remote and rural parts of the country is required to prevent cities from decaying into rubble populated by howling savages. Construction materials, food, energy. Cities pay taxes to support remote and rural parts of the country in order to support themselves.
And in a pay for use model vendors add those costs to their selling prices. They are the same as tariffs - the end user ultimately pays.
 
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And in a pay for use model vendors add those costs to their selling prices. They are the same as tariffs - the end user ultimately pays.
Sure. Then two things happen: domestic consumers turn to imports, and our producers are out-competed in export markets. Domestic production of wealth craters, and we become absurdly dependent on foreigners. Excellent national strategy.
 
Sure. Then two things happen: domestic consumers turn to imports, and our producers are out-competed in export markets. Domestic production of wealth craters, and we become absurdly dependent on foreigners. Excellent national strategy.
It's a pity that states have absolutely no tools to balance the playing field in such situations, such as taxes or tariffs.
 
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No, their work products should be priced to include the cost of the infrastructure they use. And they and their buyers should look for way to optimize those costs.

Just like how airlines pay for the costs of airports and not the general public subsidizing air travel and air freight.
Industry pays to maintain and to build some of the roads. Mainlines were generally put in by the Province that wants to see the tax benefit from resource extraction. Spur roads are normally the responsibility of the logging company to build, maintain and decommission, similar for exploration roads for mining/oil and gas. Much of BC was built by the likes of WAC Bennett, who saw the role of government to build the infrastructure, so companies could succeed and he was right. If a company want to use a resource road on a regular basis, then they have to get an agreement with the Department that owns that road, that will cover use and maintenance.
The other wrinkle is that many of the FN are now dependent on those roads to sustain their communities and the Federal and Provincial government have a duty to them. Once the road to a indigenous community is built, it will be very difficult decommission it.
 
It's a pity that states have absolutely no tools to balance the playing field in such situations, such as taxes or tariffs.
Taxes? On whom? And where does the revenue go? Maybe it could be used to pay for roads...

Apart from that, the instant governments start trying to tweak such a situation here and there with their usual coarse unimaginative tardy corrective measures, more tweaks will be necessary to correct the unwanted side effects of the initial tweaks, and so on...
 
Long-distance rail travel isn't attractive

"Canada isn't Europe" because we privilege freight over passengers and don't have coastlines conveniently extending well into all parts of the continent such that ships and trucks can move most goods efficiently enough (where there are existing ports). The freight vs passengers paradigm extends into the highly dense strip which does coincide with convenient coastlines (great lakes) and port facilities because the bones of the inadequate-for-dual-use infrastructure were laid down long ago. Long-distance passengers also need access to local transportation, but the infrastructure for that, too, has primarily grown up to serve patterns established by existing road networks and airports.

It would be costly. Something I was recently mulling on: the original 115 km of Coquihalla highway cost somewhat more than $3.5M per km in 1986. It's a four-lane highway which includes some difficult terrain stretches and severe seasonal weather shifts. Adjusted for inflation, that would be almost $9M per km.

The project to widen Hwy 1 from Langley to Abbotsford is estimated to cost $250M per km, despite following an established sufficiently wide right-of-way on what is just some slightly high ground next to the Fraser River delta.

I have no exact notion why costs have exploded so much, but must suppose based on other observations (infrastructure projects) that the phenomenon is widespread. So the question: how much would it cost per km to supply European-style passenger rail service in the "1200 km linear corridor", and how much in total for a reasonable network?
In addition, the amount of freight we ship by rail is far ahead of Europe. Canada is #1 in rail modal share (percentage of all goods shipped) in the world.

In terms of long distance passenger rail, few other countries have the distances we have to contend with. Even the Quebec City Windsor 'corridor', the European equivalent would pass through several countries.

No, their work products should be priced to include the cost of the infrastructure they use. And they and their buyers should look for way to optimize those costs.

Just like how airlines pay for the costs of airports and not the general public subsidizing air travel and air freight.
So long as on the same day municipalities start paying the full cost for their roads and transit.

Our Class 1 railways (CN and CPKC) have a strangle hold on the government. Any concept of frequent high-speed passenger rail between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal that isn't impacted by freight traffic would require dedicated tracks. The railways own the corridors so it would require cooperation and/or expropriation or part of the right-of-way. Even at that, much of 'the corridor goes through multiple towns which might not have the clearance for more tracks; hence, more expropriation on communities that would not likely see a direct benefit. Which why they are eyeing-up and abandoned corridor that runs through pretty much nothing between Peterborough and Smiths Falls.
 
So the question: how much would it cost per km to supply European-style passenger rail service in the "1200 km linear corridor", and how much in total for a reasonable network?
We don't need all 1200 km covered in one go. And nobody in the world has built a rail network like that. It's a weird Canadian obsession with everybody getting a piece at the same time. Start with the highest demand segments and move down the list. It should actually take 20 years to build the full 1200 km. So even if costs $100B. That is manageable over decades.

1) Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal
2) Toronto-Kitchener-London
3) Montreal-Trois Rivières-Ville de Québec
4) London-Windsor-Detroit
 
I would start Calgary to Edmonton. HSR between those two cities is a no brainer; you should be able to finish work, take a 30 minute ride to Calgary, have dinner, watch the Oilers destroy the Flames, take a 30 minute ride to Edmonton, and go to sleep in your own bed.
 
I can see similar issues in the Toronto Montreal corridor. There is a reason Doug Ford is contemplating a tunnel for a circular highway. European levels of development indeed. High Speed Tunnel from Union Station to Peterborough and then surface to Ottawa? When would the track disappear below ground to get into Montreal?
Not sure what you've been reading but Ford has proposed a 10-lane tunnel under the existing east-west Hwy 401 through Toronto.

Peterboro used to be a thriving middle class city of 50,000 with lots of factory jobs supporting the local economy and, like every other Ontario town of its era, supported its own schools and hospitals - including separate ones for the Catholic community. My father died in Civic and my mother died in St. Joe's. They were both protestants.
So goes manufacturing pretty much across the country, and so goes 'twin' hospitals in many Ontario communities. Pretty much every city with a hospital had two; a 'general' and a Catholic, often right next door or across the road from each other. Some smaller communities, particularly in northeastern Ontario, the only hospital was often Catholic.
 
We don't need all 1200 km covered in one go. And nobody in the world has built a rail network like that. It's a weird Canadian obsession with everybody getting a piece at the same time. Start with the highest demand segments and move down the list. It should actually take 20 years to build the full 1200 km. So even if costs $100B. That is manageable over decades.

1) Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal
2) Toronto-Kitchener-London
3) Montreal-Trois Rivières-Ville de Québec
4) London-Windsor-Detroit
It's close to certain that there are other uses for $100B that would produce greater benefits, including spin-off revenues to governments.

I don't question that passenger rail might benefit some people. I question that it's worth even trying until we have crossed off many more useful items requiring funding.
 
Not sure what you've been reading but Ford has proposed a 10-lane tunnel under the existing east-west Hwy 401 through Toronto.


So goes manufacturing pretty much across the country, and so goes 'twin' hospitals in many Ontario communities. Pretty much every city with a hospital had two; a 'general' and a Catholic, often right next door or across the road from each other. Some smaller communities, particularly in northeastern Ontario, the only hospital was often Catholic.

London keeps digging deeper tunnels because they can't interfere with existing development. Urban renewal is not a thing apparently.
NIMBY wins as long as someone else is paying.
 
It's close to certain that there are other uses for $100B that would produce greater benefits, including spin-off revenues to governments.

I don't question that passenger rail might benefit some people. I question that it's worth even trying until we have crossed off many more useful items requiring funding.
much as I love the train I must agree with you on cost/benefit. Roughly 120,000 cars transit the 401 at Kingston per day along with 10000 heavy trucks. A 12 couch train would take 840 people maximum out of those 120,000 cars so if you ran hourly service each way (not very likely) for 12 hours and they were full (also not likely) you will have removed 8400 cars: not insignificant but certainly not worth 100 billion.
 
I would start Calgary to Edmonton. HSR between those two cities is a no brainer; you should be able to finish work, take a 30 minute ride to Calgary, have dinner, watch the Oilers destroy the Flames, take a 30 minute ride to Edmonton, and go to sleep in your own bed.

Yeah, not yet apparently... but the consultants are appreciating all the work ;)



Albertans wonder if regional rail could lead to a long-debated Edmonton-Calgary train link. Between 2004 and 2014, the provincial government studied the idea at least three times, paying consultants to project speed options, costs and potential ridership.

A 2014 report found a rail link wasn't feasible and could cost between $6 billion and $10 billion. However, it recommended the province begin acquiring land between the cities for a future line, and that the cities should build out their LRT networks.

 
It's close to certain that there are other uses for $100B that would produce greater benefits, including spin-off revenues to governments.

I don't question that passenger rail might benefit some people. I question that it's worth even trying until we have crossed off many more useful items requiring funding.
People who like to compare us to Europe forget (in addition to some geographic and density issues) that they moved to high-speed passenger service from a foundation of reliable high frequency express rail service . The original proposal for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal was for high frequency service on its own trackage; meaning scheduling reliability. That then morphed into HSR in typical Canadian scope creep resulting in a price tag that is eye-watering.
 
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