High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[FSTO]

The current VIA service makes a trip to Toronto from Ottawa a toss-up between driving and train, HSR/HFR would make it an obvious train win, just like it is to Montreal from Ottawa now.

Taking the train from Ottawa to Downtown Toronto is just as fast as flying , especially when you take into account all the bullshit prior to taking off and after landing.

 

[dapaterson]

Taking the train from Ottawa to Downtown Toronto is just as fast as flying , especially when you take into account all the bullshit prior to taking off and after landing.

Plus wifi, plus more room.

 

[YZT580]

There's a lot of discussion in here about how many cars would get taken off. That's not how HSR works.

There's two kinds of travelers:

1) Time sensitive. These are the people who are flying today. And half the time these people aren't even paying their own fare. Work is usually paying. What matters to this group is door-to-door travel times when you include transit time to the airport, pre-boarding time, transit time from the airport, etc. This group may even consider same day roundtrips for a meeting. Most HSR systems elsewhere have grabbed huge marketshare with these groups. In some countries, enough to hurt the national career. See Italy as an example.

2) Fare sensitive. This is the group that drives. They are looking at total cost. And that calculation even looks at the cost of a rental on the other side. Highly unlikely this group will take HSR. They won't even take a train or bus now. Most people in this group will only ever look at the cost of gas. Cost of the car, insurance, consumables like tires, etc are sunk costs.

In places with HSR systems what you'll see is fluidity between the two groups. The exec who takes HSR for his weekly meeting in a city 300 km away, will still drive the family to the cottage in a van on the weekend. Meanwhile, some fare sensitive can get picked up occasionally when they realize they can do an out and back trip without staying in a hotel. And a lot of companies who do pay mileage will start choosing to simply buy rail passes if they can avoid overnight hotels or get extra productivity out of that employee. Do you really want an employee who makes $50/hr wasting 6 hrs on a trip between Calgary and Edmonton?

Regardless, you are only accommodating a relatively small number: it is a fringe market at best even if it does break even on operating costs. The car illustration is simply to point out how small an impact it would actually have. You are spending a ton of money for a small return. Wouldn't you be better to re-build all the commuter branch lines that used to crisscross at least Ontario for sure and try to entice people to park and ride and take some of the stress of the smaller highways.

 

[YZT580]

Plus wifi, plus more room.

Step up to VIA 1. It is worth it but make sure there is a designated driver at the other end

 

[dapaterson]

Step up to VIA 1. It is worth it but make sure there is a designated driver at the other end

Since the pandemic their legendary pours have become much more restrained and much less frequent, alas.

I once rode Ottawa to Quebec City, nine drinks or so later I was wobbling my way uphill to my hotel.

But yes, when it comes to rail, 12070 is one of my favourite numbers.

 

[Furniture]

Taking the train from Ottawa to Downtown Toronto is just as fast as flying , especially when you take into account all the bullshit prior to taking off and after landing.

The problem is, why go to Toronto at all?

The ROM is cool, and some restaurants are good, but Ottawa has museums and food.

 

[ytz]

The problem is, why go to Toronto at all?

Usually for business or family.

 

[ytz]

Regardless, you are only accommodating a relatively small number: it is a fringe market at best even if it does break even on operating costs. The car illustration is simply to point out how small an impact it would actually have. You are spending a ton of money for a small return. Wouldn't you be better to re-build all the commuter branch lines that used to crisscross at least Ontario for sure and try to entice people to park and ride and take some of the stress of the smaller highways.

Those branch lines were from era when car ownership was lower and rural populations were relatively higher. Populations (and jobs) are more concentrated in the large urban agglomerations and those have their own transit. And GO is basically slowly working towards restoring or even exceeding services that were there in the past, for the GGH.

The only intercity passenger rail investment that comes close to making sense is the long haul connecting those urban agglomerations.

I will agree that going full HSR is debatable. However, in Canada where we have no real independent passenger rail capacity, simply building that (in some half decent form) was always going to be expensive.

 

[ytz]

I was about to make a similar point.

HSR doesn't take the Napanee-Kingston cars off the road or the Brighton-Belleville cars, but it does reduce the Ottawa-Toronto cars, as well as provide an alternative to the YOW-YYZ travellers.

The current VIA service makes a trip to Toronto from Ottawa a toss-up between driving and train, HSR/HFR would make it an obvious train win, just like it is to Montreal from Ottawa now.

Similarly for Peterborough between Toronto and Ottawa. Being an hour from both cities downtown core by HSR will bring a massive influx of dual six figure yuppies.

 

[YZT580]

Similarly for Peterborough between Toronto and Ottawa. Being an hour from both cities downtown core by HSR will bring a massive influx of dual six figure yuppies.

another good reason not to build.

 

[tomydoom]

You're supposed to just let the donkey pull the cart home for you after the pub shuts

15 minutes walk from my local to my house.

 

[dapaterson]

15 minutes walk from my local to my house.

Interestingly, from your house to your local is only 5 minutes

 

[tomydoom]

Interestingly, from your house to your local is only 5 minutes

The difference is staggering.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The difference is staggering.

I see what you did, there…

 

[RangerRay]

Europe is a big place. Where exactly are you driving?

Also, in Europe, the busiest HSR are between major cities, that are just as connected by proper expressways as our own cities. The difference? Tolls. They are usually high enough that a single occupant roadtrip isn't going to be cheaper than regular (non-HSR) rail.

But like, if you're going to argue that there's no proper expressways between Paris and Amsterdam or Barcelona and Madrid, be prepared for Europeans to (justifiably) laugh at your ignorance.

Not arguing with anything you’re saying or HSR. Just commenting on my experience driving in a European country at the moment.