High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[GR66]

The point is being missed. We should produce ALL of our power. Add in a very high energy consuming HSR and how more electricity do we need? Than if the Liberals get their wish, increase EVs by thousands and thousands. Then add in heat pumps while we chase the climate fairy.

How much electricity will we need? That 90 Billion is going to need to be much higher to provide power. Or do we accept the USA (as Carney says we can no longer rely on) to provide us with power at their price and their permission?

I stand by my statement, that 90 billion if it must be spent would be better off in Nuclear power plant (and other higher priority needs such as policing, defence, hospitals)

We already produce more power than we consume and Ontario IS adding more capacity with new nuclear plants in production. To suggest that we import ZERO energy at any time simply highlights the fact that you don't understand how the integrated energy infrastructure of North America works.

At times (the majority of the time) we produce more energy than we can consume so we export the excess (and generate revenue). At some peak times when hydro reservoirs are low and/or the output of wind turbines is low we import the shortfall. This is how the load is balanced between the producers and users of electricity across the grid.

If you want to cut off those interconnections and have an Ontario-only grid then you'll have a situation where when you have a surplus of energy you won't have anyone to sell it to (major loss of revenue) and when you're short you'll have brown-outs.

Here's a map of the North American energy grid.

 

[HavokFour]

We already produce more power than we consume and Ontario IS adding more capacity with new nuclear plants in production. To suggest that we import ZERO energy at any time simply highlights the fact that you don't understand how the integrated energy infrastructure of North America works.

At times (the majority of the time) we produce more energy than we can consume so we export the excess (and generate revenue). At some peak times when hydro reservoirs are low and/or the output of wind turbines is low we import the shortfall. This is how the load is balanced between the producers and users of electricity across the grid.

If you want to cut off those interconnections and have an Ontario-only grid then you'll have a situation where when you have a surplus of energy you won't have anyone to sell it to (major loss of revenue) and when you're short you'll have brown-outs.

Here's a map of the North American energy grid.
View attachment 99513

Texas is actually a very good example of what happens when you're completely cut off from everywhere else.

 

[ArmyRick]

I never advocated for power decoupling from the USA. I have no issue with trade with the USA. Some of you jumped right to that conclusion, mostly becauise you want to make me wrong (ARDS? Armyrick derangement syndrome) I am not part of the elbozo crowd that Carney worked up last election. And unless I missed it, he seemed to imply we should sever as much as possible all relations with the USA and then Dougie Boy threatened to cut off power. So I guess it was a lot of say anything to get the votes for Carney and Ford? Well that would be a key liberal tactic to win votes.

Now kids, focus on the main issue. The HSR is still in my view, NOT a priority and not worth the 90 billion we are looking at (it will be much higher).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We already produce more power than we consume and Ontario IS adding more capacity with new nuclear plants in production. To suggest that we import ZERO energy at any time simply highlights the fact that you don't understand how the integrated energy infrastructure of North America works.

At times (the majority of the time) we produce more energy than we can consume so we export the excess (and generate revenue). At some peak times when hydro reservoirs are low and/or the output of wind turbines is low we import the shortfall. This is how the load is balanced between the producers and users of electricity across the grid.

If you want to cut off those interconnections and have an Ontario-only grid then you'll have a situation where when you have a surplus of energy you won't have anyone to sell it to (major loss of revenue) and when you're short you'll have brown-outs.

Here's a map of the North American energy grid.
View attachment 99513

There is a power producer in Atlin that is now importing up into the Yukon and the Yukon itself has an extensive grip. This map fails to show that. Also I think there is a grid between Quebec and Labrador as well?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why can we not have both?

Freedom of choice is key, I agree.

 

[GR66]

I never advocated for power decoupling from the USA. I have no issue with trade with the USA. Some of you jumped right to that conclusion, mostly becauise you want to make me wrong (ARDS? Armyrick derangement syndrome) I am not part of the elbozo crowd that Carney worked up last election. And unless I missed it, he seemed to imply we should sever as much as possible all relations with the USA and then Dougie Boy threatened to cut off power. So I guess it was a lot of say anything to get the votes for Carney and Ford? Well that would be a key liberal tactic to win votes.

Now kids, focus on the main issue. The HSR is still in my view, NOT a priority and not worth the 90 billion we are looking at (it will be much higher).

We're just responding to exactly what you stated up thread:

The point is being missed. We should produce ALL of our power. Add in a very high energy consuming HSR and how more electricity do we need? Than if the Liberals get their wish, increase EVs by thousands and thousands. Then add in heat pumps while we chase the climate fairy.

How much electricity will we need? That 90 Billion is going to need to be much higher to provide power. Or do we accept the USA (as Carney says we can no longer rely on) to provide us with power at their price and their permission?

I stand by my statement, that 90 billion if it must be spent would be better off in Nuclear power plant (and other higher priority needs such as policing, defence, hospitals)

You literally stated that "We should produce ALL of our power" and then went on to suggest that if we go ahead with HSR (among other policies) that we will then have to rely on the USA "to provide us with power at their price and their permission".

You made an initial statement based on an incorrect AI response that suggested that Ontario, Quebec and BC were net importers of electricity...which they are not. When it was then pointed out that while they are net EXPORTERS of electricity but DO import some electricity when required to balance the grid you then responded that we should produce ALL of our electricity and import NONE you were provided an explanation of how the integrated North American grid system works an why your suggestion doesn't make sense.

Now you're suggesting that we are for some reason attacking you and avoiding the real issue of the cost of HSR because we simply pointed out that a couple of your statements were demonstrably incorrect.

For the record, if you go back and read my previous posts on this topic you'll see that while I state that I'm in general in favour of improved public transportation infrastructure, as far as this particular project is concerned I'm withholding judgement pending a better understanding of how the projected $90 billion cost will be spread between the public and private partners of the project, the projected economic benefit of the project and the expected revenues to be generated from the system (and how those revenues will be split to recover the initial investment).

You are the one that is jumping to a hard position on this subject before all of the important details are fully known and then accusing the rest of us (even us Conservative voters) of somehow being Libtard fanboys for not joining you on the everything anti-Carney bandwagon.

[edited to correct a spelling error]

 

[ArmyRick]

We're just responding to exactly what you stated up thread:

You literally stated that "We should produce ALL of our power" and then went on to suggest that if we go ahead with HSR (among other policies) that we will then have to rely on the USA "to provide us with power at their price and their permission".

You made an initial statement based on an incorrect AI response that suggested that Ontario, Quebec and BC were net importers of electricity...which they are not. When it was then pointed out that while they are net EXPORTERS of electricity but DO import some electricity when required to balance the grid you then responded that we should produce ALL of our electricity and import NONE you were provided an explanation of how the integrated North American grid system works an why your suggestion doesn't make sense.

Now you're suggesting that we are for some reason attacking you and avoiding the real issue of the cost of HSR because we simply pointed out that a couple of your statements were demonstrably incorrect.

For the record, if you go back and read my previous posts on this topic you'll see that while I state that I'm in general in favour of improved public transportation infrastructure, as far as this particular project is concerned I'm withholding judgement pending a better understanding of how the projected $90 billion cost will be spread between the public and private partners of the project, the projected economic benefit of the project and the expected revenues to be generated from the system (and how those revenues will be split to recover the initial investment).

You are the one that is jumping to a hard position on this subject before all of the important details are fully known and then accusing the rest of us (even us Conservative voters) of somehow being Libtard fanboys for not joining you on the everything anti-Carney bandwagon.

[edited to correct a spelling error]

Lets be clear, I do INTEND for us to produce our own power and then some (lets sell to the USA). I would like to be an exporter on our terms, get it? Therefore I do not want us cut off from the USA.

 

[lenaitch]

The point is not being missed.

The electrical grid in North America is integrated (with some notable exceptions).

Almost all jurisdictions export electricity some of the time and import at other times as load balancing occurs. What matters is the net quantity, over time. Canadian producers tend to come out on top, over the course of a typical year.

If your point is that Canada should decouple our grid from US and build a grid only for Canadians from East to West, I am left to wonder: why? It would be massively expensive stringing transmission lines around Lake Superior to hook up with Manitoba and rob Canada of export revenue and network redundancy.

Not only is it integrated, but it is integrated into large synchronous grids (again, with exceptions). Integrated regions have to be internally electrically synchronous and any inter-connections between regions have to synchronized (either DC-AC or AC-DC-AC).

Unless you build storage on a massive scale, supply has to meet demand almost exactly at any given time.

I couldn't find any by-province data but it seems BC became a net importer for a time because of low water levels the past couple of years, but I don't know if they imported from the US or Canada, likely both.

I stand by my statement, that 90 billion if it must be spent would be better off in Nuclear power plant (and other higher priority needs such as policing, defence, hospitals)

Agree, but governments can do multiple things at once, and it's not going to be $90Bn at once. Just like building destroyers, this is government accounting over many years. Alto expenditures out to 2031 amount to about $4Bn. Once/if the thing gets built, it will generate income (although still have to be subsidized).

I realize there is only one taxpayer, but the federal government doesn't directly fund hospitals and policing. In Ontario, that is out beloved Conservative government.

Ontario has already announced 6000Mw in new nuclear capacity, plus whatever gets decided for the Wesleyville site which I don't think has been announced yet but could be as high as 10Gw. This is in addition to hydro-electric expansion. OPG apparently feels there is about 4000Mw of potential new capacity.

 

[lenaitch]

Lets be clear, I do INTEND for us to produce our own power and then some (lets sell to the USA). I would like to be an exporter on our terms, get it? Therefore I do not want us cut off from the USA.

Ya, I think we're in pretty good shape on that balance sheet:

(Source: Canada Energy Regulator)

 

[ArmyRick]

Ya, I think we're in pretty good shape on that balance sheet:

(Source: Canada Energy Regulator)


View attachment 99517

Now that trend, is it due to growing population? Anyone? If we build up our power generation capability, can we ever get to export only and not require import?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Just found out an interesting bit of gossip (I will try and verify it later)

Canada is now an electricity IMPORTER, I remember it was only a few years ago we were an electricity EXPORTER.

And we have a federal government who wants to "electrify" (You because carbon/climate blah, blah, blah) everything from EVs to heat pumps.

Maybe take that 90 Billion and build more nuclear power plants first? Last I checked, an HSR will gobble up electricity like no tomorrow.

You are probably referencing an article (see below) that Tristan Hopper wrote for the 02 April edition of the National Post. In the article he looked at better ways the $90 Billion earmarked for the HSR could be better spent on. In one of examples he talks about Canada being a net importer of electricity and links to another article he had written on 09 Feb 2026 that goes into more detail (bottom of page).

FIRST READING: What Canada could do with the $90B it's blowing on high-speed rail

It would be about the same price to build a second Canada on top of the first.

nationalpost.com

FIRST READING: How Canada squandered its most valuable national asset

Cheap and abundant electricity used to be Canada's defining trait. Now it's a net importer of power.

nationalpost.com

And when I read the 02 April article about Canada importing electricity I thought it was wrong, just never got around checking out the facts.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Once/if the thing gets built, it will generate income (although still have to be subsidized).

It will generate revenue. Not necessarily income. I'd prefer it not be one of the many schemes by which a subsidy is milked to provide (pretend) income.

 

[lenaitch]

Now that trend, is it due to growing population? Anyone? If we build up our power generation capability, can we ever get to export only and not require import?

I doubt it. Much of it is the simple physics of electricity. The system is always in flux; a bunch of ovens come on in the GTA at different times than Calgary. Load must match generation almost instantly, and unless we have massive installed electrical storage capacity, load factors can change faster than generating sources can react (they spool up/down at different rates, some quickly, some not so much) and really long distance transmission has its own issues, so a heat wave in BC isn't easily solved by opening a dam in Ontario (ignoring the fact that the two areas are not synchronous).

It becomes an economic issue whether it is cheaper to have available stand-by capacity to meet a temporal need vs. simply buying it. Inter-provincially, Ontario is considered 'summer weighed' because we use more air conditioning; Quebec is considered 'winter weighed' because they had a higher reliance on electric heating. Even with Quebec's billions invested in their northern hydro electric projects, it still imports power from Ontario, New York and New Brunswick. It's the nature of the beast.

Besides, you need wires to export to the US. The wires don't care which way the energy flows. If it is more economic to buy, the infrastructure is already there.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Four things about electricity flows between US and Canada:

• on a year-by-year or even month-by-month basis, Canada is usually a net exporter
• Canada exports only to the US
• Canadian exports are a large majority (75%+) of what the US does import
• total US imports are a very small fraction of its total demand

I have always supposed that demand is going to increase (EVs, data centres) much faster than supply in the near term. Fun times.

 

[lenaitch]

Just add to my comments, when politicians talk about an 'east-west energy corridor', in terms of electricity, it's not as simple as stringing wires on towers between the Atlantic and Pacific. Canada has three 'interconnects', regions where all the various utilities, generators, etc. are electrically synchronized. Within each region there are 'reliability councils' where members agree to maintain standards, mutual aid, load balancing, etc.

It is possible to connect between regions, at 'inter-ties' but only via specialized and not-cheap equipment and, like everything else, there are capacity issues. Quebec is its own region because, well . . . Quebec. Ontario buys and sells energy with New York and Michigan via wires. No other fancy equipment is needed and it can be done at any location that is convenient and economical. Ontario buys and sells with Quebec between six inter-ties, mostly at shared dams along the Ottawa River.





In a similar vein Texas is its own region . . . because Texas. It has four fairly low capacity inter-ties (two with the US and two with Mexico). A couple of years ago they had some unseasonably cold weather that the State' generating capacity and connections could not meet, and things got tough for a lot of people. Maintaining your uniqueness has costs.

My point, I guess (it's raining and I'm bored) that greater east-west capacity would be a good thing but, as in many things, much more complicated than the politicians make out.